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1. Who is that question directed to and, 2. what do you mean?
It was directed at you because you have been and should know what they believe. What happens when Christ returns? Why is he returning and what will happen to people who are SDA and does that differ from people who are not? I know the JW version, but not the SDA version,
Well, I will not go to the trouble of responding to this post since a previous similar and lengthy response by me (#83) to this poster was ignored by this poster on the Questions About Seventh-day Adventists thread a couple of months ago.
Have you ever attended an SDA church in small town Pennsylvania? (The United States). The behaviors I described in my posts that I observed from DH's family members and various church members are very accurate. However, I do agree that this probably varies area to area, and country to country. What is common in Pennsyltucky obviously isn't in Sydney, Australia.
My daughter was recently sent a scathing e-mail from one church member "scolding" her for having her business open Saturday. This same church member "scolded" her and her sister when younger for having pierced ears and being "painted". (Neither were raised SDA or ever became members). Another church member was in my home, opened my refrigeartor, and had a hissy fit that my refrigerator was "full of meat". (Good thing she didn't open the liquor cabinet). This same "friend" of my MIL took it upon herself to embarass me by passing out Ellen White tracts in my neighborhood, and scare the crap out of my kids' friends about end times prophecies, and giving them copies of a booklet about the National Sunday Law, in which the U.S. will prosecute all non-Sunday worshippers. Went over REALLY well with the Catholic parents.
This "friend" was actually an elderly vagrant my MIL took in whose own SDA relatives couldn't stand having her around because she was so religiously bent, even for a conservative SDA. We hated each other.
On one of the few occasions I attended a church service, the sermon topic was the Harry Potter books, and that "Satan cast a spell on the printing presses". I could never make this stuff up...I should write a book about it someday. The fact that some of them do not believe in life insurance is also not a lie. I won't argue that this is probably not typical of most SDA's, but it is of the ones I've known.
The "Seventh Day Atheist Podcast" I've mentioned has weekly themes on some of the nuttiness prevalent in SDA'ism in some areas of the United States. The theme for the past two weeks' episodes was "SDA's and Mental Illness". Again, I am not claiming this is the "norm", but all religions have a "lunatic fringe".
Last edited by Mrs. Skeffington; 02-02-2016 at 04:32 AM..
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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One thing that was talked about over and over again was the hate on that SDA had for "the papists", which referred to the Catholic Church. It was visceral, it was ugly, and bordered on the fanatical hate targeted at Jews by many eastern European populations. There was no discussing with them that I knew a lot of Catholics (I lived in a town that at the time only had Catholic schools, and that is where I went from grade 6-12).
They could not see how hateful and contradictory their feeling were, but then, as most cults, everyone who was an outsider, was subject to being influenced, or a partner, with "the enemy" (Devil).
Between talk of the "papists" and the "enemy" in general, and the exorcism practices of my ex-wife in particular, there was just waaaay to much hate and woo in that SDA church. Was it only that particular one? Nope, because when they met with other conference churches, the reports I got back from my ex and her friends was that it was common.
Yeah, it's a cult. It controls it's members, it has a charismatic idol as a leader, Ellen White, even though dead, and how is it different from Scientology? Or Mormonism? Or Sufism? Or Voodoo?
Well, if you stop to think about it, Jesus Christ was definitely a charismatic leader back in the day, and I guess that would make Christianity in general a cult. I think one major determining factor is how well the group survives and grows after the death of its founder. Most true cults simply fall apart in time, whereas others, that may be referred to derisively as "cults" for a period of time, eventually come to be considered legitimate religions.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,925,051 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Well, if you stop to think about it, Jesus Christ was definitely a charismatic leader back in the day, and I guess that would make Christianity in general a cult. I think one major determining factor is how well the group survives and grows after the death of its founder. Most true cults simply fall apart in time, whereas others, that may be referred to derisively as "cults" for a period of time, eventually come to be considered legitimate religions.
If that is what it takes, then I guess we can't call Scientology a cult. Hubbard died 30 years ago. I still think that bat scat crazy is what I would call that group.
But I some what get your point. I guess Baha'i then would be a religion. But what about the Moonies? It's like saying how long is a piece of string; it really is tough to delineate religion from cult.
As far as charismatic leaders, we know Buddha was real, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Hubbard were all real. There is little proof outside of the bible that Moses or Jesus ever existed. Paul was real, and charismatic, and one could well make the argument that without Paul, Christianity could not exist. And he had a fan boy in Constantine, who was integral in ensuring it was promulgated.
It was directed at you because you have been and should know what they believe. What happens when Christ returns? Why is he returning and what will happen to people who are SDA and does that differ from people who are not? I know the JW version, but not the SDA version,
What happens when Christ returns? I personally have no idea. And, I would say that the SDA Church also has no idea. No one could possibly know. Speaking from scripture, some of 'the righteous' will still be living at Jesus' coming while the 'deceased righteous' will be raised from their graves. Some SDAs may believe that because they have 'kept' the Sabbath and received head knowledge of Bible precepts that they will 'meet with Jesus in the air' at His coming. Other SDAs might believe that Christians of ALL folds (denominations) will see 'the kingdom of God'. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but is it not the belief of every Christian that 'they' will finish up in heaven? Isn't this pretty much the whole point of one's becoming a Christian?
Why is Jesus returning? Well, according to scripture Jesus will come to reap the harvest, i.e. to take with Him to Heaven those who 'remained faithful', whatever that might mean. If one is a Bible-believer and they therefore believe this, then, as said, they are confident in their salvation, i.e. they are saved from the wrath of God. Yep, it's a somewhat strange belief but a basic belief nonetheless that Christians of all folds hold whether they be SDAs or not. Should there be SDAs who believe that they alone, by virtue of their SDA Church Membership, are 'the elect' or 'the remnant' (and some SDAs, even many perhaps, do) then they would indeed be worthy of the title "cult follower".
There is an old joke among SDAs (admittedly, not appreciated by some) with regard to their perceived 'exclusiveness' regarding salvation. I'm not sure but I think the Mormons might have a similar joke. The point is, many SDAs DO laugh at themselves or, particularly, at others in their flock who might be 'over-the-top' with their beliefs. There is no reason to attempt to demonize someone if their beliefs might differ from those of another. SDAs are basically just regular folks, folks!
One thing that was talked about over and over again was the hate on that SDA had for "the papists", which referred to the Catholic Church. It was visceral, it was ugly, and bordered on the fanatical hate targeted at Jews by many eastern European populations. There was no discussing with them that I knew a lot of Catholics (I lived in a town that at the time only had Catholic schools, and that is where I went from grade 6-12).
Hmmm. You certainly seem to have an agenda here and one that is personal to you. It really is a waste of my time continuing on with you about what "I" found during my 20-year tenure with the SDA Church and what evidently formed an indelible impression on you due to your former wife and her apparent fanaticism for the Church. However, others read these threads and so I'll continue for a bit longer.
You say that SDAs 'hate' Catholics and that this particularly offended/offends you because you attended a Catholic School and was, I assume, close to many Catholic people. While I have NEVER witnessed an SDA actually 'hating on' a Catholic individual I HAVE learned from history that "Catholicism" or "The Papacy" or "The Roman Catholic Church" was responsible for thousands and thousands of atrocities in the past that pretty much compare to Adolph Hitler's Nazi Regime. It really happened in both cases and there is no denying this! Do people hate Germans because of Hitler and his Third Reich? Some do but most, I would think, would not place blame or hatred on present-day Germans for what occurred in the past. Similarly so with regard to the checkered past of Catholicism. That said, if anyone hates another person that is no reason to blame anyone but the individual. You're a smart cookie, Cupper ...why do you continually relate the perhaps stupid actions of individuals to the particular Church they belong to? You do realize, do you not, that the average person has the potential to be stupid?
That said, you are guilty of doing the very same thing that you accuse SDAs of doing. You are hating on a Christian group because you believe that they are hating on another group. And, you personally tag them as a cult - even though the Evangelical Church officially accepts SDAs as Evangelical Christians - simply to make them appear sinister. SDAs are regular folks and there is no reason at all to demonize them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
They could not see how hateful and contradictory their feeling were, but then, as most cults, everyone who was an outsider, was subject to being influenced, or a partner, with "the enemy"(Devil).
Yeah, okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
Between talk of the "papists" and the "enemy" in general, and the exorcism practices of my ex-wife in particular, there was just waaaay to much hate and woo in that SDA church. Was it only that particular one? Nope, because when they met with other conference churches, the reports I got back from my ex and her friends was that it was common.
This is clearly personal to you and nothing I can say will change this. So, over and out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
Scary stuff that cult indoctrination.
Yes, I was in a trance and held hostage to this evil belief system for 20-some years.
Have you ever attended an SDA church in small town Pennsylvania? (The United States).
Yes, I know where Pennsylvania is. No, I have never attended an SDA Church in Pennsylvania.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Skeffington
The behaviors I described in my posts that I observed from DH's family members and various church members are very accurate. However, I do agree that this probably varies area to area, and country to country. What is common in Pennsyltucky obviously isn't in Sydney, Australia.
I'm not doubting the accurate reporting of your posts. But what you say is not indicative of every SDA Church (and you admit to this) and nor is it a teaching of the Church that its members act weird. Really, it's not! I do know that there are churches of all denominations that have their 'fringe' groups that may differ from the 'main' Church. Here in Australia there are SDA Churches that are termed by other Adventists as being "progressive". They have become more 'charismatic' in their approach, particularly in areas such as music and worship service. These Churches may or may not be accepted by other SDAs as being 'Adventist kosher' but they exist anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Skeffington
My daughter was recently sent a scathing e-mail from one church member "scolding" her for having her business open Saturday. This same church member "scolded" her and her sister when younger for having pierced ears and being "painted". (Neither were raised SDA or ever became members). Another church member was in my home, opened my refrigeartor, and had a hissy fit that my refrigerator was "full of meat". (Good thing she didn't open the liquor cabinet). This same "friend" of my MIL took it upon herself to embarass me by passing out Ellen White tracts in my neighborhood, and scare the crap out of my kids' friends about end times prophecies, and giving them copies of a booklet about the National Sunday Law, in which the U.S. will prosecute all non-Sunday worshippers. Went over REALLY well with the Catholic parents.
I can't comment on the behavior or the actions of silly individuals. If such people were upholding an SDA fundamental that states they act stupid, hateful or make someones else's business their business then that would be something else. But, it's not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Skeffington
This "friend" was actually an elderly vagrant my MIL took in whose own SDA relatives couldn't stand having her around because she was so religiously bent, even for a conservative SDA. We hated each other.
Mutual hate, eh? That should work . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Skeffington
On one of the few occasions I attended a church service, the sermon topic was the Harry Potter books, and that "Satan cast a spell on the printing presses".
Well, I don't know about the SDA Church but I do know that MOST mainstream Churches had/have a lot of negativity toward the Harry Potter books and movies. Your average conservative Christian is against Harry Potter, etc. The average Christian also believes in Satan and that he controls the world. Why would you single out the SDAs on this one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Skeffington
I could never make this stuff up...I should write a book about it someday. The fact that some of them do not believe in life insurance is also not a lie. I won't argue that this is probably not typical of most SDA's, but it is of the ones I've known.
INDIVIDUALS are NOT the Church and its policies, whatever the denomination. As mentioned previously, there are no Church precepts stating that one should behave weird! Well, maybe with exception of the Pentecostals ... Why is it that this is all we seem to be getting on this thread ...the behavior of specific individuals that are somehow supposed to represent the fundamentals of the Church?
Please, if the 'cult' tag is to be placed on the SDA Church then let it be because of their adherence to the 7th-day Sabbath, their rejection of an eternal hell as taught by mainstream Christians, the state of the dead, their allegiance to Ellen White, their promotion of healthy living. etc. I might even agree with you regarding the Ellen White thing where it might apply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Skeffington
The "Seventh Day Atheist Podcast" I've mentioned has weekly themes on some of the nuttiness prevalent in SDA'ism in some areas of the United States. The theme for the past two weeks' episodes was "SDA's and Mental Illness". Again, I am not claiming this is the "norm", but all religions have a "lunatic fringe".
What happens when Christ returns? I personally have no idea. And, I would say that the SDA Church also has no idea. No one could possibly know. Speaking from scripture, some of 'the righteous' will still be living at Jesus' coming while the 'deceased righteous' will be raised from their graves. Some SDAs may believe that because they have 'kept' the Sabbath and received head knowledge of Bible precepts that they will 'meet with Jesus in the air' at His coming. Other SDAs might believe that Christians of ALL folds (denominations) will see 'the kingdom of God'. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but is it not the belief of every Christian that 'they' will finish up in heaven? Isn't this pretty much the whole point of one's becoming a Christian?
Why is Jesus returning? Well, according to scripture Jesus will come to reap the harvest, i.e. to take with Him to Heaven those who 'remained faithful', whatever that might mean. If one is a Bible-believer and they therefore believe this, then, as said, they are confident in their salvation, i.e. they are saved from the wrath of God. Yep, it's a somewhat strange belief but a basic belief nonetheless that Christians of all folds hold whether they be SDAs or not. Should there be SDAs who believe that they alone, by virtue of their SDA Church Membership, are 'the elect' or 'the remnant' (and some SDAs, even many perhaps, do) then they would indeed be worthy of the title "cult follower".
There is an old joke among SDAs (admittedly, not appreciated by some) with regard to their perceived 'exclusiveness' regarding salvation. I'm not sure but I think the Mormons might have a similar joke. The point is, many SDAs DO laugh at themselves or, particularly, at others in their flock who might be 'over-the-top' with their beliefs. There is no reason to attempt to demonize someone if their beliefs might differ from those of another. SDAs are basically just regular folks, folks!
I was under the impression that SDAs were cousins to the JWs and shared many of the same beliefs. They have special disdain for the Catholic church too. I can just imagine all the talk when the Catholic abuse scandal became public knowledge. I wonder how they are going to take it when the storm they have brewing finally hits. The JWs believe that God is going to restore the earth after the end times are over. Only loyal followers of God will survive the end times. To them that means someone who takes their orders from the Watchtower as they believe it is the only organization God works through. People who have fallen asleep in death will likely be resurrected into this paradise earth for 1000 years until another test is made upon the whole of humanity. Any that survive that will never again be tested and live for all of eternity.
In that video I posted the speech given to that SDA congregation could have come straight from a JW talk. Right after the one minute mark I caught something familiar to me; the concept of Satan using "secular diversion". He mentioned competitive sports, which every good JW kid knows is a no-no. What is Satan trying to divert someone from? Why would Satan use sports. Satan is always after the faithful, is he not?
Mind control is not about doctrine anyway. Saying someone's beliefs are more or less bizarre has nothing to do with it. Mind control groups do not even have to be religious. It is about how much influence it exerts over that person's life. Telling someone they can't drink coffee, must marry in the lord, or not play sports seems like excessive control. Can you leave the group without repercussions? Telling someone if they leave God will destroy them or punish them is a repercussion. There are Christians who believe God will save everyone, regardless of their belief or non belief. Not all religions are fear based.
Romulus, I went to the SDA website and looked up what they believe about the second coming.
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour’s coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ’s coming is near. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times.
Am I correct in thinking that the unrighteous are the ones who are not following God as per the SDA church?
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Why is it that this is all we seem to be getting on this thread ...the behavior of specific individuals that are somehow supposed to represent the fundamentals of the Church?
