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Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
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Just so we're clear about this . . .
I really appreciate cg81 for bringing this topic up for discussion. I totally agree with his intent and how it was expressed throughout this thread. Sometimes, Christians do bash others over the head rather than give the job of convicting to the Holy Spirit. We're simply the messengers proclaiming the Good News. As such, let's try to deliver the message with grace.
I missed your eloquent words, JVeillo. Thank you so much for sharing tolerance and grace.
And an interesting postscript: I don't believe I have posted enough or stated my beliefs here for you to assume I am the other, whatever that other might be.
I missed your eloquent words, JVeillo. Thank you so much for sharing tolerance and grace.
And an interesting postscript: I don't believe I have posted enough or stated my beliefs here for you to assume I am the other, whatever that other might be.
THe others No one told me this site had the others.......no wonder we're lost....
I hear and understand the intent of this thread, and I certainly agree with what everyone's saying. However, I'm also a little frustrated.
Why is it that Christians are the only ones labeled blinded, judgmental, close-minded, hypocritical, holier-than-thou, or people with beams in their eyes? Why are Christians so willing to accuse other Christians but unwilling to acknowledge the elephant in the room? Others rightly deserve the labels, too. And of course we never seem to acknowledge that some Christians really don't deserve any of those negative labels. (This doesn't mean they might not slip up on occasion.)
I actually believe many of the accusations thrown against Christians are insincere. Non-believers have learned that the labels are offensive, so they use them indiscriminately. They also often purposely twist our words and/or Biblical themes to portray Christianity in the worst possible light. Most are parroting the tired ideas they've run across elsewhere, and I doubt many are the sincere, open-minded individuals they claim to be. It's often obvious they don't have the Biblical knowledge they claim to have, but they can certainly parrot "Jesus is love," "Jesus never mentioned gays," "judge not lest you be judged."
Are Christians really behaving as offensively as claimed? Undoubtedly, some are. However, the non-Christians aren't readily going to admit that the message of the cross is what's actually offensive. It's far easier to marginalize Christians, instead, thus effectively shutting down the salvation message and/or the message of repentance. I've seen many Christians on this forum bend over backwards being polite and thoughtfully expressing their opinions, but all kinds of labels have been thrown at them. Worse yet are the accusations that the Christians must be suffering from guilt because they secretly enjoy the same sin they are condemning.
Ted Haggard is a favorite target when speaking of hypocritical Christians. However, I saw a message he wrote to his congregation that stated he sincerely believed the message he'd been preaching. It was a, "do as I say not as I do" type of message. Why is it that Ted Haggard is a vile, pond scum dwelling hypocrite, yet we don't label our own parents (or even ourselves) as such when they send the same message. Is it possible for a Christian to sincerely believe his own actions are wrong and admit there are areas of weakness in his life? Does that make him a hypocrite when he warns others not to do the same things he's doing? Does that make his message wrong? (Even the apostle Paul stated he did things he didn't want to do.)
I firmly believe Christians should be held to a higher standard. After all, judgment begins in the house of God. However, when does that standard become unrealistic? Even perfection wouldn't be good enough for some of Christianity's opponents. In this politically correct world, perfection is relative, so those who love to be offended will always find some reason to find offense even if none exists. I find it sad that many Christians are willing to encourage the perception of offense by throwing stones at their fellow Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
I understand this post and Christian to Christian behind closed doors I'd agree 100% and the whole post could have even come from me.
That being said, the opening sentence of your last paragraph is the crux of the matter for me. "I firmly believe Christians should be held to a higher standard."
Here's the thing, I totally get what you're saying about non-believers quoting scriptures about judging or saying something about Jesus never said this or that. To me, the appropriate response to any quote of scripture from a professing non-believer is "Are you ready to believe all of scripture? Or just that portion?" or "No, Jesus never said anything specifically about this subject or that subject, would you like to discuss the things that we know He did say?"
In other words, I think most people are capable of discerning that when a non-believer starts quoting scripture, they don't even believe what they are quoting. As my grandma used to say, it's kinda like a one legged man at a butt kickin contest. Interesting to watch but not real effective.
But here's what it all boils down to for me, and again, anyone can respond in any way they see fit, I'm certainly not sitting here trying to say "Oh, you guys should all respond like me or cg81 or blueberry or mams or any other poster". Everyone is different and the myriad of styles is one of the things that make this place interesting.
What I am saying is that comparing us to non-believers by saying they are guilty too is not a valid argument, in my opinion. It's something a group of believers might discuss at a bible study or in private somewhere, but coming down to that level in public isn't appropriate(again, in my opinion.) The difference is non-believers aren't also saying "Let me tell you about Salvation. Let me share with you the greatest love story ever told. Let me point you towards The One who came and died for me and you." If we truly love all people and hope all people come to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, certainly what we say and how we say it should be conducive to that, don't you think? Regardless of how a poster responds, shouldn't our message be 'set apart'?
They are saying, live your life, stay out of my face and when you die enjoy your time decomposing. We aren't saying anything even close to that.(That's a 'snapshot' of some, but not all posts.)
The core of our(Christians) and their(non-believers) messages is vastly different and as such I think the standard in which we operate needs to be equally different.
That's all I have been trying to convey.
Again, post as you feel led. That's just where I am coming from in my posts.
I've made mistakes. I've been offensive. I've been rude and arrogant and prideful. I've puffed up myself and felt smug and boastful after I've hit the submit button before and many times I've had to go back and apologize for things I've said that I shouldn't have. I'm not trying to correct you or anyone else, I'm just sharing what I've learned in almost a year of posting here. I hope everyone has learned something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay
If it is possible, I totally agree with both of these posts here. Excellent posts IMO. On the one hand, Christians do need to operate at a higher standard. We profess it. We need to "walk the talk." Our dealings with people should be exemplary. But on the other hand, I totally also understand what Blueberry is saying here. Christians, too many times, I think are unjustly criticized as being hypocrites when they struggle with human frailties. And too many times they are told they are being "judgmental" because they simply have called "sin" what the Bible calls it-"sin." Bottom line, we can't control others and their actions and reactions. We can only control our own.
Great posts everyone.
Some thoughts here:
Jesus did say we would be "cursed" and we should "bless back" when "cursed".
I forget that myself sometimes.
We also know that Paul went to the "gentiles/Greeks" and bumped into many of the issues and "debates" we do here and you can really see it in Corinthians IMHO.
1Cr 1:22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
1Cr 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
You can see that very mindset today. "Yea prove to me God exists, logic says he's made up" etc.
You can also see Pauls temperment when talking to fellow believers.
1Cr 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.
1Cr 2:2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
1Cr 2:3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.
1Cr 2:4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
1Cr 2:5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
Interesting to see his "spirit" about the subject of being "wise" and "informed". Sounds like a humble man to me.
But as for "smooth speach" I think Paul wasn't afraid to mix it up either but he seems to have a gentle spirit at the same time.
1Cr 4:9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.
1Cr 4:10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored!
1Cr 4:11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless.
1Cr 4:12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;
1Cr 4:13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.
But concerning those "outside" the faith, he was also concerned with false doctrine and people out to hurt and decieve the body and wasn't afraid to say it like it "is" either.
I would recommend reading II Corinthians chapters 11-13 to get the entire mindset, but I'll pull a few verses out here too.
2Cr 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2Cr 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
2Cr 11:5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super‑apostles.”
2Cr 11:6 I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
...
2Cr 11:12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
2Cr 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
...
2Cr 11:20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.
...
2Cr 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super‑apostles,” even though I am nothing.
...
2Cr 13:10 This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority–the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.
I think Paul would be called an "arrogant judgmental Christian" if he posted things like that on the board. But he was also very humble at the same time towards the brothers and sisters
Jesus did say we would be "cursed" and we should "bless back" when "cursed".
I forget that myself sometimes.
We also know that Paul went to the "gentiles/Greeks" and bumped into many of the issues and "debates" we do here and you can really see it in Corinthians IMHO.
1Cr 1:22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
1Cr 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
You can see that very mindset today. "Yea prove to me God exists, logic says he's made up" etc.
You can also see Pauls temperment when talking to fellow believers.
1Cr 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.
1Cr 2:2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
1Cr 2:3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.
1Cr 2:4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
1Cr 2:5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
Interesting to see his "spirit" about the subject of being "wise" and "informed". Sounds like a humble man to me.
But as for "smooth speach" I think Paul wasn't afraid to mix it up either but he seems to have a gentle spirit at the same time.
1Cr 4:9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.
1Cr 4:10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored!
1Cr 4:11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless.
1Cr 4:12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;
1Cr 4:13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.
But concerning those "outside" the faith, he was also concerned with false doctrine and people out to hurt and decieve the body and wasn't afraid to say it like it "is" either.
I would recommend reading II Corinthians chapters 11-13 to get the entire mindset, but I'll pull a few verses out here too.
2Cr 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2Cr 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
2Cr 11:5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super‑apostles.â€
2Cr 11:6 I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
...
2Cr 11:12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
2Cr 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
...
2Cr 11:20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.
...
2Cr 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super‑apostles,†even though I am nothing.
...
2Cr 13:10 This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority–the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.
I think Paul would be called an "arrogant judgmental Christian" if he posted things like that on the board. But he was also very humble at the same time towards the brothers and sisters
Paul was talking about other believers.
Not having conversations with non-believers.
I and II Corinthians both start with this--
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes, To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:I Cor 1:1-2
That's us JV, not the world.
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:II Cor 1:1
That's us JV, not the world.
Who are you directing this scripture to:
Quote:
2Cr 11:12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
2Cr 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
Me?
cg81?
Who?
Because there aren't any atheists strutting around here masquerading as apostles of Christ. It must be directed at self-professing Christians. And while I think there are some in this forum, it's not the people that I think we're all talking about.
Anyway, I've pretty much said my peace on this subject. I'm sorry if my words were taken the wrong way or weren't taken at all. And to all those who've slammed the door on Christ because of the asinine words of a Christian, please don't blame Christ for the people who call themselves His followers.
I really appreciate cg81 for bringing this topic up for discussion. I totally agree with his intent and how it was expressed throughout this thread. Sometimes, Christians do bash others over the head rather than give the job of convicting to the Holy Spirit. We're simply the messengers proclaiming the Good News. As such, let's try to deliver the message with grace.
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,388,427 times
Reputation: 3540
Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleton
There does need to be more peace among bretheren. It does seem like there's more division in the Church then unity. At the same time though we do know that Christ stated that he came to divide. Wheat/Tares. So I guess in a sense, unity should be sought on the basis of scriptural truth, as well as trying to be as peaceful and unified as possible when seeking this truth. Difficult to attain this day and age - with so many different denominations and convoluted doctrines, Truth has become very difficult to find. I think though if one earnestly seeks it in Love with all their heart though, they will find it. [emphasis added]
Simpleton said this so much better than my wordy posts! I'd like to see Christians promote unity amongst themselves.
This doesn't mean we have to condone or excuse bad behavior. Neither does it mean we have to compromise the Truth in the name of unity. However, we can lay aside our pride in our own "good" behavior and not point fingers at others.
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