The Old Testament Preaches No Afterlife/Resurrection But The New Testament Does (reincarnate, doctrine)

[thrillobyte]

So when did God create an afterlife? Well, sometime in the intertestamental period it appears---a time when the OT writers went silent and the Jews were returning from their exile in Babylon after having been exposed for the first time to pagan religions that taught an afterlife, which the Jews then picked up and incorporated into their own Jewish religion.

Did Old Testament writers believe in an afterlife? No.

Did they believe in a resurrection? No.

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, The book of Ecclesiastes

The Bible teaches that the dead are dead, just as atheists believe. They will not come alive again. They will have no reward in the next life as the New Testament teaches. Fundamentalists will argue that Solomon means that the dead know nothing until the final resurrection. That's not what the text says but that's the only way a fundamentalist can argue the point. But the fundamentalist cannot argue away the point that the Bible teaches that the dead have no reward of any kind after they die. That is clearly what the text says: they have no further reward.

I don't know how much clearer the Bible can state its position.

Likewise, in Job

As the water of a lake dries up
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake
or be roused from their sleep. Book of Job

Job is even stronger affirmation that nobody lives in the afterlife. they will not rise in a resurrection of the dead; they will never awake from their death state, even after the heavens are no more; they will never be awakened from their eternal sleep; (sleep was the Jewish metaphor for death).

But when the Jews absorbed the idea from the Greeks and the Zoroasterians of Persia that there is indeed an afterlife, suddenly their doctrines and beliefs changed. Jesus, being God, taught no afterlife in the Old Testament through his servants Job and Solomon yet suddenly changed his mind and taught abundantly that there are rewards in the afterlife and a resurrection from the dead when he incarnated on earth---things he denied as God in preincarnate form centuries earlier.

The Book of Daniel supposedly teaches a general resurrection but The general scholarly consensus now is that Daniel was written during this intertestamental period, sometime around 200 BC after the Jews had picked up this notion from the pagans they lived with that there is an afterlife and a resurrection.

Traditionally ascribed to Daniel himself, modern scholarly consensus considers the book pseudonymous, the stories of the first half legendary in origin, and the visions of the second the product of anonymous authors in the Maccabean period (2nd century BC) WIKI

Something is amiss here. I hope that is clear to everyone reading this.

[Chanokh]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

Job is even stronger affirmation that nobody lives in the afterlife. they will not rise in a resurrection

Oh really?

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

[Chanokh]

Also you are not the first one to bring this up, the sadducees were likewise deceived that there is no afterlife. Why would God call Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, if these died and ceased to exist?

Matthew 22:29-32 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Chanokh

Oh really?

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Chanokh, all you've done is demonstrated that Job contradicts himself. In one breath he says "he lies down and does not rise; >>>>>>till the heavens are no more, people will not awake<<<<<
or be roused from their sleep."

And in the next breath he says my "FLESH" will see God, which of course is impossible since Paul says flesh and blood shall not inherit heaven and Job had no idea of a final resurrection of the dead into glorified bodies.

You're trying to make us believe that Job believed in a resurrection and the dead would come to life, but Job did not believe that. He said so.

[Chanokh]

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

When a person dies, he is forever cut off from his place in this world. It absolutely doesn't say anything about eternity, just affirms that dead is really the end of a persons place in this life from which they will not wake. And no Job doesn't contradict himself, he does believe in the ressurection, and believes his Redeemer lives, and that he will see Him.

Job is lamenting this life, just look at the first verse of that chapter. Job 14:1 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. verse 4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

And you can see the contrast Job is painting leading up to verse 12, he compares our lives to that of a tree, which - when it's cut off - can sprout again from the trunk. Point is, unlike the tree that has hope for a comeback, he (man) is not in this life anymore. He is lamenting this life and not afterlife, afterlife is actually the hope he holds (he will see his Redeemer).

Job 14:7-10 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

[Mr5150]

And then there is Daniel 12:

At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And beyond that Jesus and the Apostles spoke of eternal life. Do you believe Jesus was a liar or deluded?

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

And then there is Daniel 12:

At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And beyond that Jesus and the Apostles spoke of eternal life. Do you believe Jesus was a liar or deluded?

5150, you obviously skipped over my comment on Daniel. You believe Daniel wrote Daniel in the 5th Century BC. He didn't. The final form with Chap 12 that you quote was written in the 2nd Century. Here, I'll give it to you again from Wikipedia:

Traditionally ascribed to Daniel himself, modern scholarly consensus considers the book pseudonymous, the stories of the first half legendary in origin, and the visions of the second the product of anonymous authors in the Maccabean period (2nd century BC)

[Hawkins]

To make a document Canonical, you have to get approval from the temple court. The temple court however is made up of the Sadducees and Pharisees, with the Sadducees refusing to believe after life/resurrection and etc.

In accordance to Josephus works, the religion of the Jews in majority are influenced mainly by the Pharisees instead of the Sadducees. There are also other Jewish documents showing such concepts, including the famous Book of Enoch.

[svenM]

The book of Job implies a believe in an afterlife, the book of Daniel explicitly teaches the ressurection at least of "many".

As you cited the book of Job, the New Testament states that the present heavens will vanish, so if Job said, "till the heavens be no more", how much did he know? Do you get my point?

[kjw47]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

So when did God create an afterlife? Well, sometime in the intertestamental period it appears---a time when the OT writers went silent and the Jews were returning from their exile in Babylon after having been exposed for the first time to pagan religions that taught an afterlife, which the Jews then picked up and incorporated into their own Jewish religion.

Did Old Testament writers believe in an afterlife? No.

Did they believe in a resurrection? No.

The Bible teaches that the dead are dead, just as atheists believe. They will not come alive again. They will have no reward in the next life as the New Testament teaches. Fundamentalists will argue that Solomon means that the dead know nothing until the final resurrection. That's not what the text says but that's the only way a fundamentalist can argue the point. But the fundamentalist cannot argue away the point that the Bible teaches that the dead have no reward of any kind after they die. That is clearly what the text says: they have no further reward.

I don't know how much clearer the Bible can state its position.

Likewise, in Job




Job is even stronger affirmation that nobody lives in the afterlife. they will not rise in a resurrection of the dead; they will never awake from their death state, even after the heavens are no more; they will never be awakened from their eternal sleep; (sleep was the Jewish metaphor for death).

But when the Jews absorbed the idea from the Greeks and the Zoroasterians of Persia that there is indeed an afterlife, suddenly their doctrines and beliefs changed. Jesus, being God, taught no afterlife in the Old Testament through his servants Job and Solomon yet suddenly changed his mind and taught abundantly that there are rewards in the afterlife and a resurrection from the dead when he incarnated on earth---things he denied as God in preincarnate form centuries earlier.

The Book of Daniel supposedly teaches a general resurrection but The general scholarly consensus now is that Daniel was written during this intertestamental period, sometime around 200 BC after the Jews had picked up this notion from the pagans they lived with that there is an afterlife and a resurrection.

Something is amiss here. I hope that is clear to everyone reading this.

You are not correct--The Psalmist knew of an afterlife---Psalm 37:9,11,29-- The righteous themselves will possess the earth and reside forever upon it---obviously forever means in Gods kingdom. So they did know.