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The majority of humanity will end up alone in hell. It's irrelevant what people believe, only what the word says matters. We can look at the flood when out of several billion only 8 were saved. In the surrounding villages who saw the ark being constructed no one took it seriously and paid the price. It's no different today where most treat the cross as if it was an ordinary thing, and the blood of Christ the same as bulls and goats. NO ONE has to go to hell, Jesus has prepared and given freely a way out of that, and to be with Him. If you have any wisdom you should be checking out this one thing with all the diligence you can muster.....the good news is Jesus will accept you right where you are.......His grace and mercy is sufficient for all......
Firstly, if you are a bible literalist then obviously you belive that story. (many Christians don't, it is more of parable if you like)
Next, how do know they were all doomed to Hell, even if they were all drowned on Earth by the flood?
This is such an infinitesimally low percent of the population saved, that it comes too unbelievable to be true.
You, Sir, have been so indoctrinated that it has blinded you to the truth. For from the days of John the Baptist, until now, the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence. What God wanted was love, faith, humility, mercy and righteousness - things the law did not provide for, instead, it murdered the innocent.
I understand a great deal more than you give me credit for, but that's just your way of refusing to see anything beyond what you have been taught to believe.
And, you failed to take into account that this speaks to that of his eternal power and divine nature, not to that of an unending period of time.
You rely to much on what others say, and you are not seeking the truth for yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Your 1st, 2nd, and 4th comments do not address the issue at hand which is whether or not the noun aiónios can refer to a period of unending duration.
As for your 3d comment, you are the one who stated with regard to duration, that if an unending period of time was in view then the word Aidios woud have been used.
''If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used.'' Post #102
You now appear to be attempting to distance yourself from that comment.
Nevertheless, in Jude 1:6 the word aidios refers to a duration of time in which the angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode are being kept under aidios bonds until the time comes for the great day of judgment.
Enoch 10:6-9 to which Jude 1:6 alludes, puts it like this.
Enoch 10:6 Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there.
Enoch 10:7 Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness;
Enoch 10:8 There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light.
Enoch 10:9 And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire.
As for the word aiónios and its cognates, it has already been shown that in certain contexts it refers to an unending period of duration. An excellent example is in Revelation 1:18.
Revelation 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
In the Greek the words for ever and ever are εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων - eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn - to the ages of the ages.
In Revelation 1:18 the word aiónios is used of the resurrected Jesus who had been dead, but now is in a resurrected body of immortality and will never die again. The word aiónios is used to express the unending duration of Jesus' life after His resurrection. Since the resurrected Jesus can never die again, aiónios can in this context only be referring to unending duration.
And that refutes the argument I've seen Universalists on this forum use which goes something like this. ''Aiónios doesn't mean eternal life, but refers to age during life which will be replaced by unending life due to being resurrected in an immortal body.'' But as seen, in Revelation 1:18 aiónios is used for the life that Jesus has after having been resurrected.
The claim that Universalists make that the noun aiónios can't refer to eternal or unending duration simply is not true.
The concepts of an immortal soul, eternal torment, along with the thoughts of a fallen angel named Satan and the construction of a place called Hell has led you astray. And much of what you believe is utter nonsense. What amazes me the most is your outright determination to propagate these as having any truth or value?
What you consider as divine inspiration is not relevant, for much of it has come from the imaginations of men and their so called Philosophies. Whether or not, their doctrines should be taken seriously– will always been an issue of debate. And, if you believe I am distancing myself from what I had stated, you would be in error.
Your so called Angels that are being held – are not in any sense of the word going through any pain and suffering – they are merely being held by the Eternal Power of the one who holds that power, therefore, their chains cannot be broken. It has nothing to do with any kind of Eternal Punishment.
If you want to be a devil’s advocate that’s your choice! However, I have no reason to debate the issue any further than what I had written. Although I will say this – there is no reason to use two words to convey something, unless they are expressing two different things. Aidios (ἀϊδίοις) is eternal (moving backward and/or forward, encompassing all that is), wheras, aionion (αἰώνιον) is merely describing a period or duration of time, not specified. It can be a life span or an age, upon an age. And I do not doubt that Jesus will be there in the ages to come.
This is what I had written in context:The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time, as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life.
Again, there is no such thing as Eternal Punishment for a finite life (do the math).
Firstly, if you are a bible literalist then obviously you belive that story. (many Christians don't, it is more of parable if you like)
Next, how do know they were all doomed to Hell, even if they were all drowned on Earth by the flood?
This is such an infinitesimally low percent of the population saved, that it comes too unbelievable to be true.
The Bible is be taken literally unless it is obvious that is not the intent, such as the "woman with 12 stars on her head" in Revelation 12.
The book says 8 were saved and the reason why so many were destroyed, which was mans extreme wickedness across the globe.........if you want to make up a better story with a happy ending feel free, it just won't be the inspired word of the Book.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them."
Those very clear verses don't sound like they were heaven bound at all. Many are confused on the issue not knowing we are ALL born spiritually dead in the inherited sin of Adam.......a level playing field but by default everyone is set for hell not heaven. Only those who truly believe and take God at His word will be saved. Jews and Gentiles alike have the gospel of grace which has been in effect for over 1,900 years now, which is what God wants us to believe.........and it's not about our good works but what Christ has done that seals us with the Holy Spirit and guarantees heaven............
The concepts of an immortal soul, eternal torment, along with the thoughts of a fallen angel named Satan and the construction of a place called Hell has led you astray. And much of what you believe is utter nonsense. What amazes me the most is your outright determination to propagate these as having any truth or value?
What you consider as divine inspiration is not relevant, for much of it has come from the imaginations of men and their so called Philosophies. Whether or not, their doctrines should be taken seriously– will always been an issue of debate. And, if you believe I am distancing myself from what I had stated, you would be in error.
Your so called Angels that are being held – are not in any sense of the word going through any pain and suffering – they are merely being held by the Eternal Power of the one who holds that power, therefore, their chains cannot be broken. It has nothing to do with any kind of Eternal Punishment.
If you want to be a devil’s advocate that’s your choice! However, I have no reason to debate the issue any further than what I had written. Although I will say this – there is no reason to use two words to convey something, unless they are expressing two different things. Aidios (ἀϊδίοις) is eternal (moving backward and/or forward, encompassing all that is), wheras, aionion (αἰώνιον) is merely describing a period or duration of time, not specified. It can be a life span or an age, upon an age. And I do not doubt that Jesus will be there in the ages to come.
This is what I had written in context:The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time, as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life.
Again, there is no such thing as Eternal Punishment for a finite life (do the math).
Well said, Jer, but I fear it is wasted on closed minds. I admit I am incredulous that people can actually believe in and accept an eternal Hell of torment and claim to love the God who created it. Love and even temporary torment are so incompatible as to be impossible to merge. I weep for those who actually see such a God and fear Him.
Who's in hell? You probably have loved ones who have died, perhaps who were never believers. Do you ever think about who's in the hell you were taught by the modern church to believe in? Do you believe all the people of other faiths who have died are in hell? All the Native Indians? All the Hindus? All the Jews? All the Muslims? All the Buddhists? All the Agnostics?
The concepts of an immortal soul, eternal torment, along with the thoughts of a fallen angel named Satan and the construction of a place called Hell has led you astray. And much of what you believe is utter nonsense. What amazes me the most is your outright determination to propagate these as having any truth or value?
What you consider as divine inspiration is not relevant, for much of it has come from the imaginations of men and their so called Philosophies. Whether or not, their doctrines should be taken seriously– will always been an issue of debate. And, if you believe I am distancing myself from what I had stated, you would be in error.
Your so called Angels that are being held – are not in any sense of the word going through any pain and suffering – they are merely being held by the Eternal Power of the one who holds that power, therefore, their chains cannot be broken. It has nothing to do with any kind of Eternal Punishment.
If you want to be a devil’s advocate that’s your choice! However, I have no reason to debate the issue any further than what I had written. Although I will say this – there is no reason to use two words to convey something, unless they are expressing two different things. Aidios (ἀϊδίοις) is eternal (moving backward and/or forward, encompassing all that is), wheras, aionion (αἰώνιον) is merely describing a period or duration of time, not specified. It can be a life span or an age, upon an age. And I do not doubt that Jesus will be there in the ages to come.
This is what I had written in context:The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time, as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life.
Again, there is no such thing as Eternal Punishment for a finite life (do the math).
You haven't debated it at all. All you've done is make naked unsupported assertions and declare those assertions to be true. You assert that the fallen angel Satan doesn't exist, but the writers of Scripture say that he does exist. You assert that there is no such thing as eternal punishment, but the writers of Scripture say that there is. You assert that the noun aiónios can't refer to unending duration when it is obvious that in certain contexts it does. You also ignore the fact that Philo used the word to speak of eternity (post #112). You speak of the imagination of men while basing your personal beliefs on your own imagination instead of on what is revealed by the writers of Scripture to whom God communicated His word.
In the Bible, those who will undergo aiónios punishment are contrasted with those who have aiónios life (Matthew 25:46). Those who will undergo aiónios punishment are those of whom it is said, they ''will not see life.'' That doesn't mean they will cease to exist, but that they will exist forever in a state of separation from God.
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
In John 3:36 there is no indicator of duration for those of whom it is said, they ''will not see life.'' There is only the absolute statement that in contrast to those who have eternal life, there are those who ''will not see life.'' There are those who will never see aiónios life - eternal life.
I believe the writers of Scripture. You have made it clear that you don't. And I will leave it at that.
Well said, Jer, but I fear it is wasted on closed minds. I admit I am incredulous that people can actually believe in and accept an eternal Hell of torment and claim to love the God who created it. Love and even temporary torment are so incompatible as to be impossible to merge. I weep for those who actually see such a God and fear Him.
There probably is a hell, but its not eternal torture, as that would then be eternal life living in torture.
If the wages of sin is death, death means you cease to exist no more, not continue on living.
What would be the point of God creating imperfect humans that typically live up to 120yrs tops, knowing already that the vast majority will reject him, only to burn them for 999 Trillion years in flames for a mistake that they made in a such small mount of time on earth.
No one here would say a Judge is a Judge of Love if they sentenced you to 100yrs in jail for stealing a candy bar or littering and not saying sorry, yet some believe God will burn people in hell for all eternity. Just turning on the water the wrong way too hot in the shower is almost torture for the split 1- 3 seconds it hits your skin, but a loving God would just burn a human over and over and make sure their body just stays as it for all eternity, so that that human can experience what its like to be burned in a fire or volcano...That is insanity to think a God of Love would even have that type of punishment for a human that he created and gave the free ill to pick right from wrong.
If Eternal Torment in Hell is a reality, then it was no point of God even creating mankind, already knowing that it would be a easy possibility for many to end up there.
There probably is a hell, but its not eternal torture, as that would then be eternal life living in torture.
If the wages of sin is death, death means you cease to exist no more, not continue on living.
What would be the point of God creating imperfect humans that typically live up to 120yrs tops, knowing already that the vast majority will reject him, only to burn them for 999 Trillion years in flames for a mistake that they made in a such small mount of time on earth.
No one here would say a Judge is a Judge of Love if they sentenced you to 100yrs in jail for stealing a candy bar or littering and not saying sorry, yet some believe God will burn people in hell for all eternity. Just turning on the water the wrong way too hot in the shower is almost torture for the split 1- 3 seconds it hits your skin, but a loving God would just burn a human over and over and make sure their body just stays as it for all eternity, so that that human can experience what its like to be burned in a fire or volcano...That is insanity to think a God of Love would even have that type of punishment for a human that he created and gave the free ill to pick right from wrong.
If Eternal Torment in Hell is a reality, then it was no point of God even creating mankind, already knowing that it would be a easy possibility for many to end up there.
Well said. But yet another will probably chime in again and say "God had no choice" -- "He cannot help that people choose hell"..... This type of thinking binds and torments the minds of those who believe it and turn them into cruel, loveless lemmings.
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