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They were smart and made arguments with what they had. Its just that it wasn't much so today their arguments seem weak. anybody that uses 2000 years old technology for the bulk support of their arguments will come up short today.
They were smart and made arguments with what they had. Its just that it wasn't much so today their arguments seem weak. anybody that uses 2000 years old technology for the bulk support of their arguments will come up short today.
I couldn't disagree more on this point. There were plenty of "heretics" with different views and interpretations.
But some of the fathers' views became official church doctrine. So anything else was driven out by force.
They are also the people who were involved in all the rampant controversies among the "clergy" of that church. Many of them were Godly men trying to lead in the Way Christ taught, many were sure that they needed to be the ones in control and limit people's perceptions to what they taught. It's a mixed bag, and many of them had mixed perceptions too. Much of what Augustine taught was valuable, some of it was heinous misrepresentation.
We need to examine anything they had to say in the light of the Spirit and the nature Christ taught, with appropriate knowledge of the disputes....most of which were of no consequence to living the Way Jesus taught.
Amen, nate. Failure to account for the frailties and fallibility of the men who formed the faith is a major mistake. That is why Jesus abides with us as the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." Too bad so many refuse to listen and search their hearts for the truth.
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Originally Posted by Hesychios
That is preposterous. This is not the age of revelation, that era has closed with the end of the life of the last Apostle.
If you imagine you know, or feel you know, you are building your own god in your own mental image. It will never work, because our little pea brains can not encompass the Almighty and it is an insult to God.
It is like worshiping your self, or a creature of your own making. It is like building your own tower of Babel, it will only end in more confusion and division.
How can you believe God has abandoned us and is no longer talking to us when we are explicitly told that Jesus will be with us always and the Comforter sent in His name will lead us to the truth????
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Originally Posted by nateswift
What is "revelation?" The principle and Spirit of the Way was laid down by Jesus, anything else is gaining understanding of how that principle is to be applied in our lives. THAT is continuing, and it is NOT the province of ANY body of men.
Amen, nate. Failure to account for the frailties and fallibility of the men who formed the faith is a major mistake. That is why Jesus abides with us as the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." Too bad so many refuse to listen and search their hearts for the truth.
How can you believe God has abandoned us and is no longer talking to us when we are explicitly told that Jesus will be with us always and the Comforter sent in His name will lead us to the truth????
Amen!!!
That way of thinking is misguided and interprets scripture in error.
God's word is truth as the son of man says. What is written in the heart of true believers and those who worship in spirit and truth is the word of God.
"My mother brother's and sisters hear the word of God and do it."
"The man who comes to me hears my word and uses it."
"As the Father sent me so I send you."
"Anyone who rejects me and does not accept my word he already has his judge namely the words I have spoken"
So it is pretty obvious that the word of God is paramount to salvation. Not what people think is written in their heart because that could be different for each individual.
Jesus said He gave His words to those that the Father gave Him. So those who are genuinely His follower must use His word as He was sent. Pretty obvious but not to those in darkness.
How can you believe God has abandoned us and is no longer talking to us when we are explicitly told that Jesus will be with us always and the Comforter sent in His name will lead us to the truth????
God does not abandon us. The revelation comes from Jesus Christ and all we can know for sure is the wisdom left to us by the people who knew Him.
There are no new beliefs and no new ways of interpreting scripture. We can not out-do those who came before us, we can only hope to emulate them.
Let's not put words in the mouth of God, and not let our imaginations run wild, it will hi-jack our thinking.
Instead, try to have a better understanding of the faith of the early church. Without neglecting Holy Scripture, study the writings of the early church to know the faith as they knew it from the Apostles. If we will just try the Holy Spirit will help us understand truth and how we should comport ourselves in this life.
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For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:27
Put on Christ!
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The intellect is made blind by these three passions: avarice, self-esteem and sensual pleasure.
These three passions on their own dull spiritual knowledge and faith, the foster-brothers of our nature.
It is because of them that wrath, anger, war, murder and all other evils have such power over mankind. St Hesychios the Priest
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Just as it is impossible to fight battles without weapons, or to swim a great sea with clothes on, or to live without breathing, so without humility and the constant prayer to Christ it is impossible to master the art of inward spiritual warfare or to set about it and pursue it skillfully. St Hesychios the Priest
God does not abandon us. The revelation comes from Jesus Christ and all we can know for sure is the wisdom left to us by the people who knew Him.
There are no new beliefs and no new ways of interpreting scripture. We can not out-do those who came before us, we can only hope to emulate them.
Let's not put words in the mouth of God, and not let our imaginations run wild, it will hi-jack our thinking.
Instead, try to have a better understanding of the faith of the early church. Without neglecting Holy Scripture, study the writings of the early church to know the faith as they knew it from the Apostles. If we will just try the Holy Spirit will help us understand truth and how we should comport ourselves in this life.
Put on Christ!
PLEASE look into the various controversies that raged through the early church beginning with the one about circumcision reported in Acts. WHICH beliefs were "the faith of the early church?" Modern Christianity DOES "emulate them," that's why there are so many different denominations.
I couldn't disagree more on this point. There were plenty of "heretics" with different views and interpretations.
But some of the fathers' views became official church doctrine. So anything else was driven out by force.
I agree with you. I was just stating they were smart and used what they knew, we may not agree with them but they used what they understood.
Today, doesn't one group of smart people drive out another group of smart people?
I use college professors as examples of "smart" people driving out commonsense (heretics) that doesn't match what they want to be the truth and only truth. Anything against what they want is met with violence and put down.
You could use examples of what I want to be real trying to drive out what you want to be real. i could do the same with you. Neither is totally illogical.
Amen, nate. Failure to account for the frailties and fallibility of the men who formed the faith is a major mistake. That is why Jesus abides with us as the Comforter within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." Too bad so many refuse to listen and search their hearts for the truth.
How can you believe God has abandoned us and is no longer talking to us when we are explicitly told that Jesus will be with us always and the Comforter sent in His name will lead us to the truth????
Amen!!!
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Originally Posted by Hesychios
God does not abandon us. The revelation comes from Jesus Christ and all we can know for sure is the wisdom left to us by the people who knew Him.
Wrong. You do NOT believe that Jesus instituted a New Covenant wherein He abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts." You rely on the Old Covenant "written in ink" and stagnate at the primitive level of ignorance of our ancestors. Jesus is with us always and we need no man to teach us.
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There are no new beliefs and no new ways of interpreting scripture. We can not out-do those who came before us, we can only hope to emulate them.
Wrong. The world is not stagnant. Life IS change and as we learn more and understand more we can revise the primitive "carnal milk" needed for our ancestors into the "solid food" intended for us to discover as we know more and more.
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Let's not put words in the mouth of God, and not let our imaginations run wild, it will hi-jack our thinking.
Let's not stagnate our thinking at the 1st century level of knowledge. That is the crime of religious leaders who pretend it is a sign of faith in God to continue to believe the product of primitive ignorance.
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Instead, try to have a better understanding of the faith of the early church. Without neglecting Holy Scripture, study the writings of the early church to know the faith as they knew it from the Apostles. If we will just try the Holy Spirit will help us understand truth and how we should comport ourselves in this life.
Put on Christ!
You can NOT put on Christ if you do not believe He abides with us and you ignore His guidance to the truth God has "written in our hearts" in favor of the words "written in ink" by our ancestors.
I agree with you. I was just stating they were smart and used what they knew, we may not agree with them but they used what they understood.
Today, doesn't one group of smart people drive out another group of smart people?
I use college professors as examples of "smart" people driving out commonsense (heretics) that doesn't match what they want to be the truth and only truth. Anything against what they want is met with violence and put down.
You could use examples of what I want to be real trying to drive out what you want to be real. i could do the same with you. Neither is totally illogical.
So, why do you think the understanding was lost? Were the early Christians writing during a more enlightened period, and the meaning was lost a hundred years later?
It sounds as if you think the original writings had a certain meaning or purpose.
PLEASE look into the various controversies that raged through the early church beginning with the one about circumcision reported in Acts. WHICH beliefs were "the faith of the early church?" Modern Christianity DOES "emulate them," that's why there are so many different denominations.
Ding ding ding.
Those church fathers were human beings who were thinking--trying to make sense of how to apply their knowledge and faith in the worlds in which they lived and moved. Same as everybody else here today.
None of us get it right any better than Augustine. It's not possible. As a matter of fact, it has been said that the Reformation was one of Augustine's thoughts pitted against another.
It's not appropriate to call them "frauds". They were your fellow Christians, seeking God, and they shaped the way we all practice our faith today, like it or not.
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