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First, this is NOT the place for those who want to bash Catholics. I only want discourse based on something I experienced while at Mass/Church.
I went to Mass at a parish I rarely go to. While waiting in the entry area, they had some leaflets I was looking at. One was entitled "Hell Exists and You Might Just Go There." I picked it up and read through it, quickly. Essentially, it talked about hell being a reality and it also added that praying the Rosary, including certain indispensible intermediate specific words of prayer, was essential to salvation. It was put out by one particular religious order. It made me fairly mad because it harkened back to the Catholic grammar school message of "you are basically bad kids" that is no longer "in vogue."
A couple of things:
(1) Do you still see the Catholic church, of which I am a member, as selling the "you are bad" scenario....I thought they were moving away from this....I mean, right now, churches are losing so many people that they can't be pushing this message
(2) How do you deal with the splintering of the Church by various orders? (As if the splintering between Christian sects wasn't already bad enough). Some orders push the Rosary and others do not. I once had a penance/atonement changed on me by a priest from another order because he disagreed with the previous priest's penance (which I brought up because I still hadn't done it because there were some logistics issues...not a big deal, really). There is this canyon between the liberal and the conservative, even within our own Church.
Catholics, or those familiar with Catholicism that aren't here to bash it, please chime in.
Last edited by robertpolyglot; 03-07-2008 at 10:52 PM..
I grew up in a Catholic church where there was a lot of talk of going to Hell. It used to really upset me as a child. As an adult I found it scary that a priest or num could tell a child he/she would go to hell for missing church. This is one reason, although I am a Christian, I now attend a Prostestant church. I couldn't feel comfortable in a faith where so many rules existed for being saved. I knew a young girl who couldn't sleep at night because she was so afraid of dying and going to hell (she was 9 years old!) I think the Catholic church needs to be more understanding if it wants to keep members (and I mean church rules,not Biblical rules--birth control for married individuals,etc).
I think that is the reason that many change faiths.But I also believe that the catholic church draws many from other faiths because of their firmness to doctrine. I am not catholic but do see too many churches worried moreabout numbers than beliefs.I am surprised that the girl mentioned did not ask her parents about hell which is what I would have expected but then kids are starving themselves for looks now days too.
I'm sure your reaction to the pamphlet would make the people who wrote it just as mad with you as you are with them. Part of the job that we have as Christians is to not get caught up in the petty doctrinal squabbles that divide us, but to focus on the universality of Christ's message.
I'm sure your reaction to the pamphlet would make the people who wrote it just as mad with you as you are with them. Part of the job that we have as Christians is to not get caught up in the petty doctrinal squabbles that divide us, but to focus on the universality of Christ's message.
Probably so, about THEIR reaction. But I think that many enlightened Catholics resent the "rules" approach, as others have mentioned. I believe that most of us have migrated to the "concept" approach. And, the concept that we are "intrinsically bad" or "going to hell" for this and that would disturb most Catholics and Christians out there, especially when they are decent and compassionate "God-fearing" people.
Why don't we all just follow JESUS. I think the vast majority of the clergy needs to get together and have a very long prayer meeting and seek GOD to help bring an end to divisions in the Church.
Actually,some families (catholic) still have these beliefs about missing church and not confessing it =mortal sin . Some of my family members do. I know these beliefs,based on fear, do not help people form a loving concept of God. You will obey (based on fear) but not because of love,which is wrong. Other denominations use fear as well,so I am not 'Bashing " Catholic beliefs. I also have a problem with some televagelists who seem to be interested in money only and therefore defeating Christ's message.
The homilies I hear are all about forgiveness & God's love. I can't recall even hearing the word hell used at Mass unless it is reciting the Nicene creed. At the Cathedral in LA the time for confession is an hour a day [Monday-Friday] & you only see a few people lined up. Also confession can be in the open around a table talking to the priest and praying. Penance is generally a focus on Christ & a promise to love the Lord above all else and love other before self.
The old Church of pre-Vatican 2 is slowly fading away. When asked about purgatory, for example, the Cardinal replied that the mystery of life and death cannot be so easily identified as a belief in purgatory. They do tell us that there are mandatory holy days & holy communion [like Easter but it isn't considered a major sin if you miss. The emphasis is on the invitation to come and worship God & listen to the word of reconciliation. It is seen as a missed opportunity when you can't attend Mass.
In-fact, I think many Protestants would feel right at home in a Catholic parish.
First, this is NOT the place for those who want to bash Catholics. I only want discourse based on something I experienced while at Mass/Church.
I went to Mass at a parish I rarely go to. While waiting in the entry area, they had some leaflets I was looking at. One was entitled "Hell Exists and You Might Just Go There." I picked it up and read through it, quickly. Essentially, it talked about hell being a reality and it also added that praying the Rosary, including certain indispensible intermediate specific words of prayer, was essential to salvation. It was put out by one particular religious order. It made me fairly mad because it harkened back to the Catholic grammar school message of "you are basically bad kids" that is no longer "in vogue."
A couple of things:
(1) Do you still see the Catholic church, of which I am a member, as selling the "you are bad" scenario....I thought they were moving away from this....I mean, right now, churches are losing so many people that they can't be pushing this message
(2) How do you deal with the splintering of the Church by various orders? (As if the splintering between Christian sects wasn't already bad enough). Some orders push the Rosary and others do not. I once had a penance/atonement changed on me by a priest from another order because he disagreed with the previous priest's penance (which I brought up because I still hadn't done it because there were some logistics issues...not a big deal, really). There is this canyon between the liberal and the conservative, even within our own Church.
Catholics, or those familiar with Catholicism that aren't here to bash it, please chime in.
Well, hell is very much still part of Catholic teaching. However, I don't know if you mis-read the pamphlet (perhaps it was worded poorly), or if the religious order was a valid one (rather than a radical traditionalist sect), but asserting that one's salvation hinges on saying the rosary, or inserting certain words into the rosary, seems absurd to me and not fitting orthodox teaching. Yes, the rosary is a very powerful tool and an excellent basis for a daily prayer regimen, but not the sole key to salvation.
It also seems very odd that one priest would change the penance of the other.
There is an indeed a gulf between liberal and conservative "elements" of the church. I think a better characterization, however, would include heterodox liberals (those pushing same-sex marriage, contraception, etc.), orthodox Catholics of a more liberal (social justice - focused) or conservative (moral teachings and liturgy - focused) slant, and radical traditionalists, from the "soft" side (the SSPX) to the "hard" (sedevacantist organizations that claim the current pope is a heretic and not really the pope of the church).
I think the more "enlightened" priests don't use fear so much (thankfully). I am not that old (grew up in the 80's and early 90's) but the church I grew up in it may as well have been 1800 in their teaching (and by church I mean parish)!
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