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Waste of time with all this "lost tribes" baloney.,......there are ZERO lost tribes....I guarantee the Lord knows every Jew that belongs to Him.......he breaks out 144,000 (which is 12,000 from EACH tribe) during the Tribulation so that blows the lost stuff all to pieces.......
Judah has never been lost dude, Judah is the son who stayed home with the father.
Sure, Jews sinned, but God has never given up on them, but he did give op on Israel, and it's ten kingdoms. What Christians read about Ephraim in the New Testament, they confuse Ephraim with Judah, and Judah still walks with his God.
Hosea 2 ~ Judah's covenant IS FOREVER, hey, you see the sun and moon fall out of the sky? It means that God has given up his covenant with Judah and this hasn't happened, and nor will it happen.
Since these conversations all tend to get balled up in one mushy incoherent mess let me just say I post these dispensational grace bits to hopefully inspire a few folks to dig in to the book and see what it REALLY SAYS not what some "cemetery" professor parrots out just like his pappy did before him, spouting the traditions of men and denominations.......when the Lord could care less about that. I'm not saying anything new, nor am I the only one telling people that salvation today is THROUGH Paul's messages, Romans through Philemon...........the mysteries were revealed to him, not the twelve......and of course don't anyone be ridiculous and say I worship Paul and not Jesus......Paul glorified Jesus and so do I.......the Creator and cornerstone of everything is Jesus of Nazareth........the one who holds the universe together......HE put together an incredible book.......more people should rightly divide it and realize that it all becomes harmonized when you do........
2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Chanokh........you say wedges and I say RIGHTLY DIVIDING....perhaps listen a bit more to Timothy....
Your fuzzy view that grace was known to everybody doesn't jive with what the book says. The Bible was a progressive revelation and the knowledge that Gentiles could be saved by Grace by the same God the Jews knew wasn't known until the mystery was revealed to Paul......even the angels wondered how Jesus was going to save us.
And then this bears repeating....God had no part with Gentiles AT ALL while He was dealing only with the house of Israel
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—
Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD.
All those people killing and burning their pets at the Temple knew about grace? NO THEY DID NOT and they weren't supposed to know about it because it had not been revealed yet.
This constructed unreality present everywhere in the denominations today is the problem Grace runs into. Most people just throw 33,000 verses in a blender and think they all work just fine. Pick one out and use it here or there it makes no difference, but it does make a huge difference, you simply can't understand the book without knowing the dispensations and who each one of those 66 books was written to.
The sad fact is Jesus died and paid our price so that we could have Grace today, HE did a mighty work so that we don't have to, only believe.........I'm not interested in wedges only the truth of scripture.....
Vf6cruiser, as I pointed out in post #3, God sent Jonah to Nineveh with a message of repentence. The Ninevites were Gentiles.
I'll add now that Isaiah 56:6-8 speaks of foeigners (Gentiles) joining themselves to the LORD.
In the book of Daniel, King Nebuchadnezzar, a Gentile, came to acknowledge the God of Daniel as a result of God's dealings with him. God gave Nebuchadnezzar a vision in which an angelic watcher gave him a message about the impending discipline coming upon him in which he would become mentally ill for a time and live with the beasts of the field. After he recovered he came to believe in the God of Israel.
Other examples can be given of Gentiles being saved during the age of Israel, but the ones above should suffice.
Salvation, whether for Jew or Gentile has always been by grace, and never through the law. The law was given to Israel to show that no one can keep the law perfectly and therefore can't be saved by the law.
Grace in the Old Testament is expressed in Isaiah 55:1.
Isa. 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
This is similar to Revelation 22:17.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
The Church-age was hidden from and unknown to the Jews during the age of Israel, and was hidden from the angels as well, but while grace is emphasized in this dispensation, God's graciousness was revealed in previous periods of human history. The Church-age was the mystery given to Paul. Not the principle of grace.
Vf6cruiser, as I pointed out in post #3, God sent Jonah to Nineveh with a message of repentence. The Ninevites were Gentiles.
I'll add now that Isaiah 56:6-8 speaks of foeigners (Gentiles) joining themselves to the LORD.
In the book of Daniel, King Nebuchadnezzar, a Gentile, came to acknowledge the God of Daniel as a result of God's dealings with him. God gave Nebuchadnezzar a vision in which an angelic watcher gave him a message about the impending discipline coming upon him in which he would become mentally ill for a time and live with the beasts of the field. After he recovered he came to believe in the God of Israel.
Other examples can be given of Gentiles being saved during the age of Israel, but the ones above should suffice.
Salvation, whether for Jew or Gentile has always been by grace, and never through the law. The law was given to Israel to show that no one can keep the law perfectly and therefore can't be saved by the law.
Grace in the Old Testament is expressed in Isaiah 55:1.
Isa. 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
This is similar to Revelation 22:17.
Rev. 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
The Church-age was hidden from and unknown to the Jews during the age of Israel, and was hidden from the angels as well, but while grace is emphasized in this dispensation, God's graciousness was revealed in previous periods of human history. The Church-age was the mystery given to Paul. Not the principle of grace.
Good post, Mike. I never read this for myself; but I once heard someone say that Dr. Scofield at one point commented that at any given time in human history, salvation has always been by grace.
Good post, Mike. I never read this for myself; but I once heard someone say that Dr. Scofield at one point commented that at any given time in human history, salvation has always been by grace.
Thanks. The following quote is from an article by C. I. Scofield.
LAW AND GRACE BY C. I. SCOFIELD
It is not, of course, meant that there was no law before Moses, any more than that there was no grace and truth before Jesus Christ. The forbidding to Adam of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17) was law, and surely grace was most sweetly manifested in the Lord God seeking His sinning creatures and in His clothing them with coats of skins (Gen. 3:21)-a beautiful type of Christ who “is made unto us . . . righteousness†(1 Cor. 1:30). Law, in the sense of some revelation of God’s will, and grace, in the sense of some revelation of God’s goodness, have always existed, and to this Scripture abundantly testifies. But “the law†most frequently mentioned in Scripture was given by Moses, and from Sinai to Calvary, dominates, characterizes, the time; just as grace dominates or gives its peculiar character to the dispensation which begins at Calvary and has its predicted termination in the rapture of the church. [Bolding mine]
Matt Sherro in the article 'Salvation and Dispensationalism,' quotes Charles Ryrie as well as Scofield, and notes that they both taught the same thing.
Dispensationalism has always taught one way of salvation. C. C. Ryrie, 1995: “the basis of salvation in every age is the death [propitiation] of Christ.â€[6] C. I. Scofield, 1890: “God’s grace to man is always based on the work accomplished by Christ in His death [propitiation] on the cross.â€[7] What Scofield taught in 1890 is exactly what Ryrie taught one hundred years later. Although dispensationalism is accused of teaching a different way of salvation in every dispensation, dispensationalists have always taught the basis for salvation from Adam to the end of the ages is the propitiation made by Christ. [Bolding mine]
Waste of time with all this "lost tribes" baloney.,......there are ZERO lost tribes....I guarantee the Lord knows every Jew that belongs to Him.......he breaks out 144,000 (which is 12,000 from EACH tribe) during the Tribulation so that blows the lost stuff all to pieces.......
No, You don't know the history and you are repeating what somebody else said who doesn't know the history.
Jesus only came to bring a covenant to Ephraim and Judah.
I know you are not Judah, and by your own admission, neither can you be Ephraim.
Being that you have no covenant at all because God gonna find those lost tribes, what else is there to say?
You are not grafted through Judah, a gentile is only grafted through the void of the ten lost tribes and Paul explains this very, very clearly in Romans 9.
God seeded the ten tribes within all nations, and any gentile who comes converting to Judaism and become one with Judah is Ephraim.
Ephraim and Judah cannot be separated, did you know this?
Our claim is that Jesus came with a promised betrothal just as Hosea 2 promises those the lost tribes. That after they were seeded into the nations where they became gentiles, all could come back repenting for the idolatry and paganism in their involvement in pagan holy days and envy against Judah, there can not be two nations, there is only Judah, and those joined to Judah.
Gentiles became co-heirs, BROTHERS to Jews when they converted to Judaism.
Now you are a person who claims that he has no covenant at all because Gentiles are grafted through the ten lost tribes and they become,'' Ephraim.''
That is the only promise you got.
Then there is Judah, and you sure aren't a Jew.
Whether you want to admit the truth or not, it doesn't matter.
Jesus ONLY brought a covenant for Ephraim and Judah and you have just proved without a doubt that you are neither Ephraim OR a Jew.
Hosea 2 ~ The Only promise that the Ten lost tribes of Israel is given. All of this concerns the kingdom of Ephraim, and in NO WAY AT ALL IS IT SPEAKING TO JEWS.
This scripture is a promise to the house of Israel who were NEVER, EVER JEWS.
These people called the Torah a strange thing and they refused the holy days of Jerusalem and adopted the same pagan holy days as Christianity has today.
God wiped them out, and after they become gentiles, ONLY THEN does God offer them a promise where they will be as the sands of the seas.
NOT JEWS, NOT THE HOUSE OF JUDAH, the kingdom of Ephraim, the lost ten tribes will return as the sands of the seas because of so many of them.
This is promise Paul is stating, and Paul is proving without a doubt that he is amongst the ten lost tribes and just one of 7000 reserved in Israel, in every generation.
Paul is explaining Israel, NOT JEWS, he is explaining how ten tribes of his people were broken off and their kingdom ended because of unbelief and people will put this on Jews, when it couldn't be further from the truth, Paul is speaking of his own lost people of the Northern Kingdom and how Gentiles would one day come and be a part, a co heir with Jews, Just as Paul had done himself.
The friend of the bridegroom is sent out, John goes to prepare lost gentiles to come and marry a Jew to be redeemed back into Israel.
Israel's Unfaithfulness Punished for the involvement of Paganism.
1Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi; and to your sisters, Ruhamah. 2Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts; 3Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst. 4And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms. 5For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink. 6Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths. 7And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now. 8For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal. 9Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness. 10And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand. 11I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts. 12And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them. 13And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD.
God's Mercy to Israel 14Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. 15And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. 16And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. 17For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. 18And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the
battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. 20I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
21And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
22And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
23And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Paul is quoting this scripture and showing EXACTLY how gentiles are grafted through this promise to the gentiles who come repenting of their paganism.
Revelation 13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.{Ephraim is ten gentiles/ten heads and THEY ARE the sands of the seas}
I am so grateful today that Paul fought the good fight for the message
But what message? That the Jews were justified by the law, or a mix of grace and law, but now the gentiles receive salvation by grace? I don't think so. Yes there is progressive revelation, yes Gods grace is more fully revealed in Jesus Christ than it was through the symbols and shadows of the Old Testament. But the fact that something is more fully revealed, and to a wider audience, does not mean the core principle of salvation did not exist, or is in any way different. Salvation was through faith in the promised Messiah, and through faith in Gods revelation upto that point. But salvation is and was, and ever will be, by grace through faith, not something we earn because we cannot be justified by the law. It was so before the law came for Abraham, it was the same for David after the law was given, and it is the same for believers today who have the full revelation of Jesus Christ, the Bible makes this very clear.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Galatians 3:8-9 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Romans 4:5-8 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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