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As a veteran of several ostensibly Christian forums, where the brothers and sisters in Christ are capable of being as nasty to each another as any New Atheist ever thought about being, I hesitate to discuss doctrinal matters at all. Nevertheless, this one is interesting because many Christians don’t appreciate its practical significance. It goes a long way toward explaining why many Christians are completely bewildered by other Christians.
I’m not one of those Christians who obsesses over the Book of Revelation. Like a sizable body of NT scholars, I believe Revelation was intended largely for the early Christian community and is talking mostly about first century events. Its significance for us is general rather than specific. <delete>
I simply believe the Bible makes clear that humanity is moving toward an era called the Last Days; that conditions on earth will become increasingly horrible for believers and non-believers alike as we enter into and move through the Last Days; and that at some point the Second Coming will bring an end to it all. This much can be gleaned from the four gospels.
Those who do obsess over Revelation can be divided into “premillennialiasts,”“postmillennialists” and "amillennialists." In general, premillennialists believe the Second Coming will occur after a period of great tribulation and before Christ begins His thousand-year reign of peace on earth (the millennium). “Pre-tribulation” premillennialists believe Christians will be spared the tribulation by a rapture occurring before the tribulation begins. “Post-tribulation” premillennialists believe Christians will have to endure some or all of the tribulation along with nonbelievers.
Postmillennialists believe the Second Coming will occur after a thousand-year period during which Christian ethics will prevail. Amillennialists view the thousand-year period as figurative rather than literal and as representing a long period of deterioration in human society before the Second Coming occurs.
The significance, as you hopefully can see, is that the position you adopt determines your perspective on the world in which we live. If you are a postmillennialist, you can convince yourself that things are getting better all the time and will continue to do so. If you are a premillennialist or an amillennialist (or a Troglodyte74), on the other hand, you will believe precisely the opposite: things are getting worse all the time and will continue to do so until we arrive at a veritable hell on earth.
In short, premillennialist Christians and postmillennialist Christians are inevitably going to be talking past each other and wondering, "How could any Christian believe that about the world in which we live???" This is true not only of Christians who have seriously considered the alternatives and formally adopted a premillennial, postmillennial or amillennial position, but also of those who just sort of drift into a "things are getting better all the time" or "things are getting worse all the time" mindset.
I believe that history, especially since 1900, supports a Troglodyte74 perspective. We are descending, at precisely the sort of accelerating rate similar to labor pains that Jesus warned about, into a veritable hell on earth. Whether the full descent will take 50, 100 or 200 years (or longer), no one can predict. Those who see things as getting better all the time are, in my opinion, not only out of touch with the Bible but out of touch with reality as well.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 06-26-2017 at 05:36 AM..
Reason: "doors" to a political discussion not allowed
See Jesus will only make His visitation during a time of apostasy so to bring His church back to victory , as He said from Matthew 24:32-33 ......``Now learn this parable from the fig tree When its breaches has already become tender and puts forth leaves , you know that summer is near . So you also , when you see all these things , know that it is near at the door ! ``............... The fig tree represents sin as Adam and Eve hid their sin with fig leaves , so in the summer represents the growth of sin in the world which God is pushed out once again , will be the time for Jesus second coming , Still there are other prophecies that Jesus TODAY calls for to be fulfilled , like the gospel must reach all nations to be a testimony before Jesus will come ....
As I believe Matthew 24:30-51 is a metaphor about our life and eventual death, and that at death we will ALL see the son of man at which time each of us will arrive at our final destination.
You won't find the phrase 'second coming' in the bible, so that's personally why I've dispensed with that doctrine, and taken the partial preterist view that when Jesus said 'some of you will not taste death when you see me coming in the clouds of glory' he was talking about the end of the Old Testament era (including formal end of sacrificial system!) when Jerusalem was surrounded by the Romans and ransacked in AD70.
But, I'm partial preterist because I also believe the Bible (more specifically scripture) must have something to say about the whole time span of Adamic mankind, and again, I believe it does, with respect to the 7,000 years / 7 days time frame.
Dispensing with the second coming, and also a physical return of JC, because he is now, Himself, in the spiritual realm, what is The father doing in the earth? He is raising the spiritual temperature that is for sure. It has to get worse and better both at the same time. And when we enter the eternal order, post 7,000 years, will everyone be restored to Father at that point...? I'm not so sure. But it's our job to be mature sons and BE Christ to those around us.
I believe that history, especially since 1900, supports a Troglodyte74 perspective. We are descending, at precisely the sort of accelerating rate similar to labor pains that Jesus warned about, into a veritable hell on earth. Whether the full descent will take 50, 100 or 200 years (or longer), no one can predict. Those who see things as getting better all the time are, in my opinion, not only out of touch with the Bible but out of touch with reality as well.
I think we make the next life form myself, in 200 years or less. Some literalist will mistakenly call it the end times. Sort of like puberty is an end time.
I actually do keep a list. It's not a list of the sort you hear on "End Times" radio and TV programs, which are based almost entirely on whether current events match up with someone's interpretation of Revelation. My list is based more on events and broad trends that did not make your list - the collapse of morals, the Jewish holocaust and abortion holocaust, the rise of technologies that have made a sudden end far more likely, the rise of Islam, etc. You might not agree with parts of my list at all - perhaps you think the moral climate is better than ever or that the abortion holocaust is not a holocaust at all. This is an area where I think Christians can only rely on what the Bible says and what their own experiences, observations and intuition tell them. My intuition tells me "the Last Days have started." I will say, however, that if the end has not come in 200 years, I think Christians are going to have an increasingly difficult sales job to do.
I actually do keep a list. It's not a list of the sort you hear on "End Times" radio and TV programs, which are based almost entirely on whether current events match up with someone's interpretation of Revelation. My list is based more on events and broad trends that did not make your list - the collapse of morals, the Jewish holocaust and abortion holocaust, the rise of technologies that have made a sudden end far more likely, the rise of Islam, etc. You might not agree with parts of my list at all - perhaps you think the moral climate is better than ever or that the abortion holocaust is not a holocaust at all. This is an area where I think Christians can only rely on what the Bible says and what their own experiences, observations and intuition tell them. My intuition tells me "the Last Days have started." I will say, however, that if the end has not come in 200 years, I think Christians are going to have an increasingly difficult sales job to do.
I hope you take the time to verify some of the points I made. Do you disagree that you may be using the data to see what you expect to see to fit an end time prophecy? The holocaust was a recent example of men's ability to act in truly evil ways when they dehumanize others. If you want to see that end then stop participating in the "otherizing" of people. If that appeals to you then this might help. Overcoming Us vs. Them
History is full of these examples of violence toward out groups prior to 1900 as well. Your Bible is full of it.
Eccl 7:10 Don't long for "the good old days." This is not wise.
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