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I have long felt that the essential themes of the message of Christ ought to stand on their own as reasonable bases for following that Way without the miracles or fulfillment of prophecy that usually accompanies that presentation: a sort of "if it has to depend on these supernatural elements for people to follow it, how reasonable can it be?"
In another thread Gaylenwoof expressed his perception that he would have to see such answers to questions to consider any such "message" even possibly valid:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaulenwoof
For me to find this narrative plausible, I would need rational, non-magical and (ideally) empirically testable answers to a variety of questions.
I would like to see if it is possible to discuss important themes of the Christian narrative in that way
The three examples of such questions given were:
(1) What was so special about Jesus from a biological or, at least, a physical point of view? Just the right genes expressed in an optimal environment? A "perfect storm" of physical events that somehow made Jesus the perfect physical vessel for this resonance with God's consciousness? And was this somehow planned and/or inevitable, or was it more like a "right place at the right time" / "lottery-winner" type of event?
(2) Did he have to die, or suffer greatly, or both, in order to achieve this Mind-of-God resonance? If so, then why? And what does this tell us about the nature of death or suffering more generally?
(3) Did God chose this path, specifically, for Jesus, or did the narrative unfold in a more spontaneous/uncontrolled fashion? Perhaps the Christian narrative charts, to some extent, the struggles of a limited God (perhaps something like Jung's Collective Unconscious?) striving to reduce suffering, etc.?
Please indicat the question you would like to address and give your rationale for your view. I hope other such questions can be introduced and treated the same way, though it may be that a thread will have to be devoted to each one, Let's see how it goes.
I have long felt that the essential themes of the message of Christ ought to stand on their own as reasonable bases for following that Way without the miracles or fulfillment of prophecy that usually accompanies that presentation: a sort of "if it has to depend on these supernatural elements for people to follow it, how reasonable can it be?"
In another thread Gaylenwoof expressed his perception that he would have to see such answers to questions to consider any such "message" even possibly valid: I would like to see if it is possible to discuss important themes of the Christian narrative in that way
[from Gaylenwoof] "For me to find this narrative plausible, I would need rational, non-magical and (ideally) empirically testable answers to a variety of questions."
.
Then that eliminates God entirely.
God is entirely supernatural.
Therefore the existence of God is not reasonable.
"if it has to depend on supernatural elements for people to follow it, how reasonable can it be that there is God"
also, if for someone to find God plausible, they need "rational, non-magical and empiracally testable answers" of course none exist. Never have, and never will.
therefore this too eliminates God entirely.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-27-2017 at 06:36 PM..
so with God eliminated and removed entirely from the picture and the narrative,
then that leaves JC as a nice guy helping others, practicing social reform.
yes, that is rational. JC is a mentor and model of secular humanism. Yes, The Way of helping others and extending kindness certainly does hold up to empirical testing. Those essential themes certainly do stand on their own as reasonable, without the superstition and magical thinking that God exists getting in the way.
sec·u·lar hu·man·ism
noun
humanism, with regard in particular to the belief that humanity is capable of morality and self-fulfillment without belief in God.
social reform
a group of people with a common ideology who try together to achieve certain general goals;
advocates the use of reason and individualism instead of tradition and established doctrine;
a movement that seeks to change the social and political views of marginalized groups;
involves the marginalized group and the activists in an effort to change political policy while bringing public awareness to the issue through protests and amended legislature
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-27-2017 at 06:40 PM..
That God follows rational practices is not a denial of God, Why would you think that God HAS to be irrational? If secular humanism leads to the same conclusions that Jesus taught, does that mean Jesus was wrong? Or that secular humanism is wrong in those conclusions? It seems to me that the only difference is the basis for our belief that God set things up in a way that people could actually think was good.
This is not a thread to justify devotion to God, but to examine the "plan of salvation" we believe was instituted by God.
Jesus claimed to be God. He claimed that no man can come to the Father except through Him. He made claims about Himself that if those claims were not true, then He was the greatest deceiver this world has ever known and following Him and putting Him first is worthless.
People can be altruistic and promote humanitarianism without believing in God or following Christ.
But Jesus is who He claimed to be and miracles and prophecy are part of the ''Christian narrative''.
The second person of the Trinity, whose human name is Jesus, was sent into the world to die for the sins of the world as the Scriptures plainly state so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
That God follows rational practices is not a denial of God, Why would you think that God HAS to be irrational? If secular humanism leads to the same conclusions that Jesus taught, does that mean Jesus was wrong? Or that secular humanism is wrong in those conclusions? It seems to me that the only difference is the basis for our belief that God set things up in a way that people could actually think was good.
This is not a thread to justify devotion to God, but to examine the "plan of salvation" we believe was instituted by God.
following your stated criteria, God is removed entirely from the narrative.
because the existence of God is not reasonable, does not hold up to empirical testing, is entirely supernatural, is not rational, and is entirely magical.
the existence of God does not meet any of your stated criteria.
therefore the existence of God is removed from the narrative.
your criteria remove God from the narrative:
"if it has to depend on supernatural elements for people to follow it, how reasonable can it be?" (the existence of God is entirely supernatural)
"need rational, non-magical and empirically testable answers" (the existence of God is entirely magical and not empirically testable and not rational)
with God removed entirely by your critieria , this leaves what you call the essential themes that stand on their own reasonable bases, which is The Way of social reform and secular humanism.
That God follows rational practices is not a denial of God, Why would you think that God HAS to be irrational? If secular humanism leads to the same conclusions that Jesus taught, does that mean Jesus was wrong? Or that secular humanism is wrong in those conclusions? It seems to me that the only difference is the basis for our belief that God set things up in a way that people could actually think was good.
This is not a thread to justify devotion to God, but to examine the "plan of salvation" we believe was instituted by God.
Not to derail your thread but I'm a secular humanist so I wanted to explain what that means. It doesn't mean that we think an all benevolent God wouldn't be a great thing and that humans have it all figured out. Secular means we don't see evidence for a God so we are all we have. Secular humanists believe in their fellow man's capacity for goodness. I don't believe in God but I believe in you.
Edit: I believe this fulfills the scripture at
1 John 4:20
…19We love because He first loved us. 20If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well.…
Love to a secular humanist would look more like accepting the person and celebrating their unique perspective with them instead of trying to "save" them. (which is also a valid way to look at love...just not to me because I'm a humanist)
so with God eliminated and removed entirely from the picture and the narrative,
then that leaves JC as a nice guy helping others, practicing social reform.
yes, that is rational. JC is a mentor and model of secular humanism. Yes, The Way of helping others and extending kindness certainly does hold up to empirical testing. Those essential themes certainly do stand on their own as reasonable, without the superstition and magical thinking that God exists getting in the way.
sec·u·lar hu·man·ism
noun
humanism, with regard in particular to the belief that humanity is capable of morality and self-fulfillment without belief in God.
social reform
a group of people with a common ideology who try together to achieve certain general goals;
advocates the use of reason and individualism instead of tradition and established doctrine;
a movement that seeks to change the social and political views of marginalized groups;
involves the marginalized group and the activists in an effort to change political policy while bringing public awareness to the issue through protests and amended legislature
following your stated criteria, God is removed entirely from the narrative.
because the existence of God is not reasonable, does not hold up to empirical testing, is entirely supernatural, is not rational, and is entirely magical.
the existence of God does not meet any of your stated criteria.
therefore the existence of God is removed from the narrative.
your criteria remove God from the narrative:
"if it has to depend on supernatural elements for people to follow it, how reasonable can it be?" (the existence of God is entirely supernatural)
"need rational, non-magical and empirically testable answers" (the existence of God is entirely magical and not empirically testable and not rational)
with God removed entirely by your critieria , this leaves what you call the essential themes that stand on their own reasonable bases, which is The Way of social reform and secular humanism.
Not to derail your thread but I'm a secular humanist so I wanted to explain what that means. It doesn't mean that we think an all benevolent God wouldn't be a great thing and that humans have it all figured out. Secular means we don't see evidence for a God so we are all we have. Secular humanists believe in their fellow man's capacity for goodness. I don't believe in God but I believe in you.
Edit: I believe this fulfills the scripture at
1 John 4:20
…19We love because He first loved us. 20If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well.…
Love to a secular humanist would look more like accepting the person and celebrating their unique perspective with them instead of trying to "save" them. (which is also a valid way to look at love...just not to me because I'm a humanist)
nice!
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