Does Romans 2 support endless annihilation? (hell, punishment, church, after life)
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NIV Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal (aionios) life.
"immortality" means never dying.
God gives those who seek "immortality" eternal life.
By the definition of aionios suggested by universalists, this verse indicates that people seek to NEVER die, but only says that God gives them life for a limited age. Not very encouraging!
Please note that many other translations say "incorruptibility" rather than "immortality". In fact it has been said by a number of Greek scholars that the word here, APTHARSIA, does not mean "immortal", & there is another Greek word, ATHANASIA, conveying that idea. Also the same word is variously translated in the NT as "sincerity", "integrity", "purity", "sincerity", etc. Furthermore, Thayer gives "perpetuity" as one meaning. So, for your interpretation to be valid, you'ld need to prove that "immortality" is the only correct translation there.
Second, Paul can be interpreted as contrasting those who get aionios life with those who get wrath on a certain "day", the "day of wrath" (Rom.2:5). Not 'the eternity of wrath'. Endless wrath is not mentioned in this context, but "indignation... ,tribulation and distress" (v.8-9). BTW, those who have ceased to exist forever, as in Conditionalism theory, would not be in "distress".
Also as regards a "day of wrath" (2:5), we understand that a "day" of punishment is not an endless punishment, though in Scripture a day can be 1000 years to the Lord (2 Pet.3:8). And 1000 years is the length of the millennial age eon kingdom of the Lord. So why couldn't this passage be contrasting eonian destinies in the future millennium? The gift of eon-ian life [life in the millennial age eon] being to those who seek "glory, honor & purity" or incorruption (of soul & spirit, in this life).
Concerning your comment "but only God gives them life for a limited age. Not very encouraging!", neither Paul, Scripture or Universalists use your word "only". Not that anyone deserves a future life of endless bliss, or even for 1000 or 25,000 years, but there are many other statements in Romans, in Paul's other writings & the NT as a whole in support of an endless life being the gift that Love Omnipotent shall grant to those who are His in this world, e.g. Romans 8:31-38. Ultimately, IMO, all shall obtain such a life:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
Rom.8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
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Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).
For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
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For further info on the general topic of the deceptive mistranslations of aion and aionios:
Death is the cessation of all life - experience, intuitiveness, emotion and even suffering come to an end.
Nothing happens after death. The dead know nothing.
Therefore the second death is spiritual annihilation.
"Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." - Jude 1:13
Death is permanent. In this sense its eternal. Every cemetery is filled with dead bodies that will never walk the earth again. Permanent death. Some of those who have passed on are enjoying eternal life with Christ. Most are not. Death is a permanent state. In this sense its eternal. But there is a difference between eternal life and permanent death. One continues. One does not.
The idea of eternal punishment was published in the middle ages by Dante Aguilera in his book THE DIVINE COMEDY. If you read the book you will immediately discover that its a work of sarcasm, not theology. It's a work of fiction meant to caste aspersions on the politicians of Dante's day. It even names them by name. Instead of being accepted as a work of fiction as it was intended, the Roman Catholic church used its ideas to reinforce a climate of fear and to increase donations.
Eternal suffering, as disgusting as it might seem to be, is in fact a form of life. It may be a terrible life, but its life. The Bible indicates that the punishment for rebellion and sin is DEATH - physical death followed by spiritual death.
"The wages of sin is death." - Romans 6:23
But God is willing to forgive any who repent of their wickedness and turn from their sin. The time to repent is now, for the second death is the inevitable consequence for those who persist in sin.
Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God be "All in ALL" (v.28).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
Death is the cessation of all life - experience, intuitiveness, emotion and even suffering come to an end.
Nothing happens after death. The dead know nothing.
The resurrection of ALL happens after death (Jn.5:28-29, etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
Therefore the second death is spiritual annihilation.
Not Scriptural.
And nothing in your post addressed the context of Romans 2 which is the topic of the OP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
"Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Jude 1:13
That's a deceptive translation. More literal versions say:
Young's Literal Translation
wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.
Weymouth New Testament
wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom is reserved dense darkness of age-long duration.
Berean Literal Bible
wild waves of the sea, foaming out of their own shame; wandering stars, to whom the gloom of darkness has been reserved to the age.
Second, Paul can be interpreted as contrasting those who get aionios life with those who get wrath on a certain "day", the "day of wrath" (Rom.2:5). Not 'the eternity of wrath'. Endless wrath is not mentioned in this context, but "indignation... ,tribulation and distress" (v.8-9). BTW, those who have ceased to exist forever, as in Conditionalism theory, would not be in "distress".
Side Note.
Consider that the Temple design is in 3 sections in order to show us what the kingdom of heaven really is. Hebrews 8 and 9 tells us this, and it says that Jesus went to officiate the feast days as a priest in that heavenly Tabernacle that the Earthly tabernacle was designed after.
The way past the first veil
The 3 sections begins when you walk through the broad veil into the broad outer court of Gentiles. But inside that court of Gentiles{which is also called,'' The court of darkness.''} There is a very huge sign in that court that reads,'' No Gentile Past this point.'' But within the outer court of darkness and of Gentiles, right there is where you find the brazen alter of burnt offering for salvation, and so is it a broad way to come to God in the court, and there is also salvation in the broad way. But there is another veil which leads into the Tabernacle proper itself, the outer court is not a part of the Tabernacle proper.
Through this second veil, you actually enter within the Tabernacle itself, but ONLY if you are of Israel, and Isaiah 56 shows us who is Israel, and who isn't Israel whether Jew or Gentile.
The Truth past the second veil ~ How A Gentile Obtain An Inheritance In Israel Isaiah 56 KJV
The Gentile will never enter into the Tabernacle if he doesn't accept God's ways that he could get past that second veilwhere the truth is hidden from the Gentile. Past that second veil into the Holy place are the 12 loaves of bread that the priests would eat at the end of each week, and this to sustain them as the true bread of God. While they are eating that true bread of teaching, they do so under the guidance of the 7 characteristics of God which are found in the spirits of the 7 lights of the Menorah. THE TRUTH is found right there in the Holy place where no Gentile may come unless they themselves have obtained an inheritance in Israel, and very few Gentiles are willing to do such a thing, even if it means their restriction to the Temple Proper.
The Lifepast the third veil ~ So Called, '' The Kingdom Of Heaven.''
Only one person in the entire nation shall enter past the third veil, and in many scripture we hear about the kingdom of heaven and how no liars or thieves or adulterers, those who speak against the law will NEVER into through that third veil, ALLTHOUGH, it is open to all people whether the Gentile or the Jew, either one can begin in study to fulfill the requirements of a priest, and THEY ALONE enter into Life, and this is the Zoe life, a more abundant life.
There are two words for the word,'' Life,'' one just means life, but the other is a Zoe, abundant life UNLIKE the people in the Holy place or the Gentiles standing in the court.
The reason we find things we don't often agree with in the scriptures, most people are not reading the scriptures with a clear idea of what the temple is made of and what each part of the temple represents as a body of Christ, a virgin of Christ.
WE KNOW for sure that the temple was built in an exact design to represent the after life and who was who just by reading Hebrews amongst other books that say the same.
Anytime we see the phrase,'' The Kingdom of heaven,'' we should ask ourselves whether it speaks of the Zoe abundant life, or it speaks of life outside the Holy of Holies. The only people who enter into abundant life are priests. Only a high priest may gain passage past that third veil.
Oh goody. Another thread denying a basic fundamental truth.
Just like people deny the historical fact of Christianity being a sect of Judaism for over 100 years?
That is a lot of years to erase, but people don't mind, and the world has always sought to erase the history it didn't like.
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