Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You can continue to believe YOU have to save yourself by "whatever" means your mentors have told you to do to belong to their church, but the truth is Jesus DID the saving and "It is finished." YOU have nothing to do with it. None of us do. We have to BELIEVE Jesus and follow His instructions to love God and each other every day and repent when we don't or reap what we sow, period.
Apparently you will never 'get it.' Jesus did all the redemptive work on the cross which made salvation possible. His spiritual death on the cross paid the penalty for our sins. But that doesn't mean that anyone is automatically saved. Having our sins paid for doesn't save us. It merely removes sin as an issue in salvation. There is still the matter of having to receive the righteousness of Jesus which we must be imputed with in order to be saved. And we do not receive the righteousness of Jesus until we receive Christ as our Savior. The apostle Paul makes that clear in Romans chapters 3-5.
Believing in Christ for eternal life is not saving yourself. It is in fact acknowledging that you can't save yourself and are trusting in the One who made salvation possible. No one receives eternal life until they place their faith in Christ Jesus. That is what the Bible says. The Bible which was written by apostles to whom Jesus promised would be guided into all the truth by the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:31 is 'believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.' Not 'believe Jesus that you have already automatically been saved.'
Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved (σωθήσῃ), you and your household."
It's future tense. You will be saved as a result of believing in Christ Jesus. Your salvation depends upon placing your faith in Jesus. The moment you believe in Him you have eternal life. Until you believe in Him you are spiritually dead.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-12-2018 at 08:10 AM..
You still don't get it, Finn. Christ saved everyone. We dummies have nothing to do with it. Your elevation and reverence for the Bible AS IF it was infallible as God is why you remain confused. You are trapped under the OT veil of ignorance (blind minds) that Jesus came to lift because the "precepts and doctrines of men" tell you to believe them as a sign of faith in God. Sad.
Greetings. What you've said about our having nothing to do with it is not an incorrect statement. It is true that we cannot save ourselves. We are saved through Christ's work on our behalf.
But probably the majority of the people that I know believe that there is a God, and that we are accountable to Him. But they also believe that they are reasonably good people with whom God will ultimately not have a problem, so to speak.
But they are effectively trusting in their own worthiness before God, and have no real interest in Jesus as any kind of a savior. Many of these people don't wish to hear even the first word about Jesus. They feel they are just fine on their own. But God tells us quite specifically that we are not OK on our own, and that outside of Christ we have no hope. The problem is that unless we come to that place where we realize that we need to be saved, and that Jesus is our only hope for salvation, we will sadly not become saved.
This is why the Bible repeatedly emphasizes this point. We can even see this in the well-known passage below:
John 3:16-19
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Also:
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
A verse like John 3:19 tends to explain a lot of things about man's reluctance to come to Christ:
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
We can see throughout the New Testament how most of those to whom the Gospel was declared was not well-received. The words of Jesus here are noteworthy:
John 5:39-40
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Yet He also promises: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37).
It is true, as you've shared, that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them..." But this was to open the door for the whole world to believe on Christ... that the Gospel could be declared to the whole world, which is why that verse concludes with:"and has committed to us the word of reconciliation". So, it makes abundant sense that in the preceding verse we read that we are given the "ministry of reconciliation".
This is the Gospel message that we are to bring to the world. But we also must make it very clear that this reconciliation is not available apart from believing on Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation. The many who have no interest in Christ will not receive this salvation. We are commanded to believe on Him in order to be saved. And, again, we have the sure promise that those who come to Christ, those who believe on Him, will, indeed, be saved. Would it really make any sense to believe that although the command is given to believe on Christ as the only way of salvation, that those who don't believe will be saved, regardless?
The requirement is simple, but yet seemingly offensive to those who feel that they do not need a savior. God has given to us a Savior, out of His profound love and mercy. But many, very sadly, have not cared to receive Him. But we must not lose sight of the fact that unless we respond in faith and receive and believe on Christ, we will not be saved. Praise God that today is still the day of salvation. God bless.
A few here worship themselves by claiming they have God's spirit and the Bible is wrong. They have placed the focus on themselves instead of what god gave to man to focus on Him. If one rejects the scriptures he is rejecting salvation, since it is a belief/fact based on ... the Bible.
Not quite accurate. It seems they have taken the focus off the BIBLE and placed it on God.
You've got it backwards. The Bible is based on the belief, not the other way around.
What he wants me to say is "it's in the bible", because what he he's hearing is "the bible is not important"(which is his god), when i have never said such a thing. All i have said is it is worshipped and God gave the gift of himself and that gift is greater than the bible.
you didn't say the Bible wasn't important. Nor did I conclude such. Not sure where you grabbed that out from but conversations are easier when questions are answered and assumptions are not made.
It helps to talk directly to me And as we've seen, the mere idea this hand held object is worshipped is just crazy because that is of a crazy person. Next you'll start discussing people who eat the bible for lunch. Wanted to move on from that if you hadn't noticed the Bible is Gods means of communication with us for us to have a relationship with him, no more, no less. Cannot love someone or something you do not know.
It is a book made of paper, nothing magical about the method of delivery to have conversations with us so we can know him, know is will, etc..
Now back to it...are you willing to answer the question or not?
Last edited by Penny4YourThoughts; 03-12-2018 at 10:25 AM..
you didn't say the Bible wasn't important. Nor did I conclude such. Not sure where you grabbed that out from but conversations are easier when questions are answered and assumptions are not made.
It helps to talk directly to me And as we've seen, the mere idea this hand held object is worshipped is just crazy because that is of a crazy person. Next you'll start discussing people who eat the bible for lunch. Wanted to move on from that if you hadn't noticed the Bible is Gods means of communication with us for us to have a relationship with him, no more, no less. Cannot love someone or something you do not know.
It is a book made of paper, nothing magical about the method of delivery to have conversations with us so we can know him, know is will, etc..
Now back to it...are you willing to answer the question or not?
Well, you do have a point. It is not you that have claimed that pcamps and others who reject the idea of the Bible as complete authority in spiritual matters, so your indirect quote of a Biblical passage is not necessarily a trap ("How do you know he's given us all things that pertain to life and godliness?" 2 Pet 1:3: "His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.") So, not to steal pcamps thunder, I would say that the fulfillment of the promise of the guidance of the Spirit is self-evidently exactly that. I probably should add that the very BASIS of the New Covenant in that concern for the well-being of others is all we "need," but application can be problematic.
Not quite accurate. It seems they have taken the focus off the BIBLE and placed it on God.
You've got it backwards. The Bible is based on the belief, not the other way around.
Yes, there is a difference between believing something and having faith in it. Lots of folks get the two mixed up.
Like most folks, I BELIEVE the earth is round. But it would be weird to say I have FAITH in it. The earth being round requires nothing from me. There is no requirement for me to TRUST in the earth's roundness in order to BELIEVE it. Believing is but a mental conviction that something is true.
But I'm married to the same woman for 47 years not because I believe in her, but because I have faith in her. I learned some things about her before we married, of course, but I didn't marry her because I believed in her, had a mental conviction about her, but because I trusted her. We promised to trust each other and to be trustworthy toward each other in terms of living up to our wedding vows. This is the biblical definition of FAITH>
It's important to understand a wedding as a COVENTAL relationship, not a mental conviction. Marriage is just about the only COVENTAL relationship left in this country and an appalling 50% break that covenant. It's being treated more like a contract.
There is tremendous difference between a contract and a COVENTAL relationship. A contract is a legal arrangement BETWEEN people, while a covenant is a pledge of TRUST that involves the people themselves.
I go to buy car and sign a contract that guarantees I will pay the money the contract requires. The dealer hands over the car with the provision that they will take the car back if I break the contract. The thing that the dealer believes is not that I am necessarily trustworthy, but that the legally binding force of the contract will be enforced. Fail to make the payments for any reason, regardless of how trustworthy I may be, the car will be repossessed.
But when two people enter into marriage in a traditional sense they enter into a covenant. They pledge their lives to one another. They entrust the very quality of their lives to each other. That trust of marriage is clearly in each other, not in a marriage certificate. Breaking that covenant usually has far more consequences than breaking an auto contract. If one is untrustworthy, the harm done to their spouse, family, friends and even society as a whole is something no legal contract can recover.
And the big difference is that people enter into covenants because they TRUST one another. They enter into contracts because they DON'T TRUST one another.This is exactly the problem of Bible readers who see the Bible as a contract. "God says this in the Book, and I BELIEVE it" and will rely on that legal document. Those people BELIEVE in a contract.
In light of our culture it isn't surprising that when people read Scripture with a CONTRACTUAL rather than a COVENTAL mind-set, it distorts everything including the Bible's teaching on faith. Add to that the modern mistaken tendency to identify faith with believe and to assume that a person's faith is as strong as they are certain, the possibility of significant misunderstanding is enormous.
The Bible describes the OT faith as a COVENTAL RELATIONSHIP, not a contract between God and Man. The fact that the Hebrews and then Israel broke that COVENTAL relationship continually and we see the hurt to God and to the very people that were untrustworthy.
God enters into covenants, not contracts. His promises are to those who are TRUSTWORTHY and COMMITTED in that covenant. Those people, and now individuals, who rely on a COVENTAL relationship are God's kind of people. Those that are committing their BELIEF in the Bible as a contract, show that they lack the TRUST God wants from His people.
(material taken from Benefit of the Doubt: Breaking the Idol of Certainty, chapter 6, by Gregory Boyd)
Last edited by Wardendresden; 03-12-2018 at 10:56 AM..
Your bible describes Jesus Christ as the exact represention of ALL that God IS. So if anything contradicts this exact representaion of God, then it is simply not God, it is just an assumption of what you think God is due to ignorance. Throughout the scriptures you will find assumptions of God that do not represent the true identity of God, which is Jesus Christ, so you simply ignore them seeing them for what they are.
Jesus himself said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father(God), i and the Father are one.
the Bible verse you singled out is in the book of John Chapter 10.
Hopefully I am assuming correctly that you chose it because you believe it??
If not, I apologize.
Please correct me.
10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
What Jesus is saying here....
is that despite me being PRESENT with you IN THE FLESH for your eyes to see me,
hands to touch my body,
ears to hear my words
you still do not believe in me Phillip??
you still do not know who I am Phillip?
Three persons in one, Phillip??
that I and the father....are one??
Have you not heard my communications Phillip with your ears in order to know me,
to believe in me,
to have a relationship with me>????
Re-read the above ^^^. What he is conveying has MANY implications.
It assumes reason you know his word,
which AT THAT TIME was communicated thru hearing using human ears
but now is communicated thru using his written word,
Is that you know this because he's revealed it to you thru his method of communication
That the father, and the Holy Spirit are one.
They are working together, 3 persons in one,
to communicate the Fathers word to us so we may know him.
Have a relationship with him via communication, the only avenue
Otherwise He becomes a stranger to us
It also reads....if you advance a few verses to get its full meaning...that whoever believes in me, will do the works I am doing. You cannot know him unless you know his word, aka "the works he is doing" without knowing him.
[b][i]
Ephesians 1:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 he[a] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
[b][b]
Once he communicated it using his own finger written on tablets!
Once he used a donkey to talk
to reiterate some of his laws such as us being in dominion and caring for the beasts
not abusing them
How will we know the works he is doing so we can heed his demand/requriement here??
The requirement to "know his works"
to know him and not be a stranger to him??
via the method of communication he's provided to us- the Bible.
His word is how he unveils "the mystery of his will" to his own children. Us.
Remember, anyone can read the Bible. Saved or Unsaved.
He unveils "the mystery of his will} to his own. To the saved.
That is thru his word- however he's provided it.
Whether being here in the flesh- audio using human ears,
whether using his finger on tablets,
or using paper and pen written down,
This how he unveils the mystery of his will to his own people.
It is unveiled via the Holy Spirit. The is the only way to know him. To reject the only way to know him, is to NOT KNOW HIM
We know he no longer communicates in person, physically in the flesh, so our ears cannot hear his words
We know he no longer communicates via writing his word on stone tablets using his finger
We know he no longer communicates allowing a donkey to re-iterate his will
We know he communicates to us, all three persons in one, via his [written] word aka the Bible.
We cannot heed to his will without knowing his word. Written or Audio. Audio is for later, Jesus is no longer here present on earth.
We cannot know him at all except thru the sole means he's provided us.
A means wasn't available to our forefathers,(or in limited writings of the OT) they had him in the flesh.
You cannot know him, know his will, know his requirements to belong to him, in any other way.
It is thru his word, present or written that he unfolds the Holy Spirit to us which works inside us making us believe.
.
Last edited by Penny4YourThoughts; 03-12-2018 at 11:39 AM..
It also reads....if you advance a few verses to get its full meaning...that whoever believes in me, will do the works I am doing. You cannot believe in something you do not know. You cannot know him unless you know his word. Communicated thru various means throughout history. Heck once he communicated it using his own finger written on tablets! Once he used a donkey to talk!
How will we know the works he is doing so we can heed his demand/requriement here??
We know he no longer communicates in person so our ears cannot hear his words
We know he no longer communicates via writing his word on stone tablets using his finger.
We know he no longer communicates allowing a donkey to re-iterate his will (we are commanded to take and care for, the animals. Once this requirement was re-terated thru him empowering a donkey to speak)
We cannot heed to his will without knowing the written word. We cannot know him at all except thru that means. That means wasn't available to our forefathers, they had him in the flesh. You cannot know him, know his will, know his requirements to belong to him, in any other way. It is thru his word, present or written that he unfolds the Holy Spirit to us which works inside us making us believe.
No, "we" do not. God does speak to me. Christ said that His sheep will know His voice. He was not talking about the written word. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, not the Bible. The Bible is a wonderful collection of books. I love reading, and studying it. But it isn't the sole authority, God is. His Spirit speaks to us even now, if we choose to listen.
The following quoted text is part of my story. I will leave a link if you would like to read the whole thing. Not only has God spoken to me numerous times, but He spoke to a friend, his name is Bill. I didn't know who Bill was at the time. If God had not spoken to Bill, and told Bill to go to me, I would not be here now. I lost track of him for a long time, but have since reconnected with him, after I wrote this. If you don't believe me, I can connect you with Bill, and he will tell you the same thing. To clear up some things, I am trans.
Quote:
In my mid twenties, I think I was 24 or so I was at the end of my rope, again. I was tired of being strung out all the time, tired of trying so hard to "act like a man" and failing terribly, tired of dating other women trying to prove to myself that I could do it, essentially using them to try to "be a guy." They usually ended because I wouldn't have sex, the very idea of using that thing made me sick. So I was standing on an over pass one day, I was going to jump, the cars on the freeway below were going pretty fast, I figured it would be over pretty quick. I was finishing a cigarette when this uber preppy looking guy in this crappy red Nova pulled up. I mention these, because he looked so out of place in that car, it was kind of funny, like an 80 year old guy in a Corvette. His name is Bill. He's a great guy, I still consider him one of my best friends, even though we haven't spoken in years. We lost touch a long time ago, and I really have no idea how to find him. Anyway, he and his wife were driving on the freeway. He didn't even see me, but God knew I was there, and told Bill I was getting ready to jump, so Bill, and his wife Jayne (with that spelling, I'm telling you those two did not belong in that car haha) got off the freeway, and came to talk to me. I couldn't tell them why exactly I was going to jump, so I blamed it on the drugs, which was true, but not the whole truth. I wasn't ready to even admit it to myself. I knew that God wasn't going to let me kill myself, no matter what I tried to do, so that was my last attempt, I think. There were so many attempts really, it's hard to keep them straight chronologically, and the drugs kind of affected my memory, so that's kind of shot. I stayed with them for about a year or so, and got off drugs for awhile, but the pressure I was under was too much, so I relapsed.
Can self professed ‘Christians’ who reject the Scripture be saved?
Can self professed Christians who reject the power of the Holy Spirit be saved?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And as we've seen, the mere idea this hand held object is worshipped is just crazy because that is of a crazy person. Next you'll start discussing people who eat the bible for lunch. Wanted to move on from that if you hadn't noticed 
the Bible is Gods means of communication with us for us to have a relationship with him, no more, no less. Cannot love someone or something you do not know. 
