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Reason I ask is because let's just say someone who has it easy in life becomes a Christian and gets saved.
Then you have someone whose had it very rough in life who doesn't get saved.
How is that fair?
Its like almost from the start that God loved the person who had it easy in life and hated the person whose had it rough.
Let's take the story of Jacob and Esau.
Is it fair to say God disliked Esau from the start,while he was in the womb?
Reason I ask is because let's just say someone who has it easy in life becomes a Christian and gets saved.
Then you have someone whose had it very rough in life who doesn't get saved.
How is that fair?
Its like almost from the start that God loved the person who had it easy in life and hated the person whose had it rough.
Let's take the story of Jacob and Esau.
Is it fair to say God disliked Esau from the start,while he was in the womb?
The Bible clearly states that God hated Esau. I believe in election -- and that God foreknows us...so yeah--I believe he hated Esau from before conception.
The Bible clearly states that God hated Esau. I believe in election -- and that God foreknows us...so yeah--I believe he hated Esau from before conception.
If you believe this, how do you know if God doesn't hate YOU?
Reason I ask is because let's just say someone who has it easy in life becomes a Christian and gets saved.
Then you have someone whose had it very rough in life who doesn't get saved.
How is that fair?
Its like almost from the start that God loved the person who had it easy in life and hated the person whose had it rough.
Let's take the story of Jacob and Esau.
Is it fair to say God disliked Esau from the start,while he was in the womb?
What kind of proof are you looking for? If it's scriptural proof, well I could give you many scriptures, but someone else will read those and interepret them differently. For instance if I show you a verse that talks about "destruction", some people will say that it means God is destroying human beings, whereas I don't see the destruction of human beings, but the destruction of the non-love within us.
Yes, I believe that God loves all of us, equally.
I completely understand your train of thought.
I'll just share a few things, for what it's worth:
-God does not love the person who had it easy in life MORE than the person who had it hard in life. We are all here TOGETHER to learn. We are learning the greatest lesson there is in life: LOVE. This contrast of love and non-love is what we are all currently walking through. Through our actions of love and non-love we are affecting the world around us and each other. We are way more closely related to each other than most think. We are ONE with each other and with the world around us, what hurts one, hurts us all. (This is the BEST way to learn, and I think ultimately, it's a good design that the world is this way.)
-If you are mildly thirsty and you take a drink of water.. how does that compare to when you have been out in the hot sun all day, sweating and suffering and then you take a drink of water?
-Sometimes things aren't always as they seem.
-I believe ALL people are "saved". I believe all people will be healed and will be reconciled. I believe we are ALL family, and that EACH life will end up teaching us ALL something, someday. We can't see the big picture now clearly. (we see through the glass darkly now.. but this "not seeing clearly" state is temporary and a necessity) But those who suffered the most in this world, may just end up being the ones who teach us the MOST. Also.. again think of that drink of water. There is a verse that says that the suffering in this world will not compare to the glory that is to be revealed. I didn't always used to believe that, but I do now. Tears will turn to laughter... I've personally had a taste of that already and can understand the meaning. Sometimes things don't make sense at all until you've had some sort of direct experience.
-It's hard to look around at this world sometimes and believe there even IS a God... but it's only because we are all walking this life together struggling with the LOVE and the NON-lOVE while we are learning this lesson. (The ultimate supreme POWER of LOVE, and the destructive force of NON-LOVE.) Again, read the first point in this post.
This is a pretty huge topic, so I apologize for the long post. Just wanted to get some thoughts out there.
Again, this is just MY view. I'm not out to prove anything, just sharing.
How about your family? Your loved ones? Are they elect too?
My wife is, I believe. She's a believer, and I've seen her faith grow in the last few years that would lead me to believe that she is. Obviously, I don't know her heart, so I can't speak for her. I'm not sure about my kids--that remains to be seen.
This is exactly what satan wants many to feel or believe, God hates certain people. Jehovah God didn’t hate Esau, in the true sense of the word. But because he knows us, even when we’re still in our mothers womb. He knew the ways in which Esau, AND Jacob would walk. If he hated Esau in such way, Esau wouldn’t have been blessed ,(Gen. 36:1-6). In the days of old, those having much livestock, wasn’t what one would call poor, So he was blessed. Also like many of us today, Esau as did Jacob, were imperfect so they did sin. Obviously though, like Jacob, it didn’t mean Esau didn’t worship the God of Israel. Jehovah God loved Esau, just as he loved Jacob. But he had his own personally reasons why he choose Jacob.
Check this out, he chose Moses to get his people out of Egypt, (Gen. 3:9-12), even though Moses was raised as an Egyptian, NOT being taught about Jehovah God. When God could just as well picked Moses brother Aaron, who WAS taught about the God of Israel. It didn’t mean he loved him less, again God knew he wanted to do whatever. And if God love one based on what they have or how far up the ladder they’re standing. Then why did he let us know that even those in high places, if don’t straighten up, will be destroyed, (Rev. [SIZE=3]6:15-17, And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand)?[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE] [SIZE=3]Actually MANY who have it all, or living pretty good, don’t even choose to follow Jesus, not to mention do the will of his Father. Because their wealth and riches became their God. These will surely be destroyed unless they change their worldly and greedy ways. Jehovah doesn’t want NO ONE destroyed, (Ezek. 33:11 ). And he’s there for ANYONE who does his will , (Isa. 41:13 For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee). Notice he didn’t say,…ah!... I’m referring to those up the ladder. [/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE] [SIZE=3]And (1Pet. 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers. but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil). Satan wants us to feel this way about Jehovah God, so that we will be destroyed. Satan IS the one that truly HATES ALL humans, (1Pet.5:8). And he’ll fool us with many lies, especially if it’s against God, (2Cor. 4:4, and Ephe. 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles, (tricks) of the devil ). Again God loves ALL, it doesn’t matter who you are. peace [/SIZE]
Reason I ask is because let's just say someone who has it easy in life becomes a Christian and gets saved.
Then you have someone whose had it very rough in life who doesn't get saved.
How is that fair?
Its like almost from the start that God loved the person who had it easy in life and hated the person whose had it rough.
Let's take the story of Jacob and Esau.
Is it fair to say God disliked Esau from the start,while he was in the womb?
A VERY important topic.
Let us imagine for a moment, if God loved one people, and not another people. Even though He made both people.
Does God not know that if He shows His love to one group, and not to the other, that there will be envy?
Is it not the same as a mother who shows love to one child, and contempt for another?
So the only "benefit" of loving one person/people more than another, is to create envy.
Does God want us to envy?
Probably not.
---
Personally, I believe that the word "hate" used to describe Esau is not hate like you and I know hate to be. As long as we consider God to be similar to man, we will fail to learn about Him as we should.
His ways are not our ways. If man hates someone, you can be sure that that is not how God hates. In fact, Paul describes hatred as a "fruit of the flesh" and a sin.
So if God "hates" someone, it's not the hatred that we experience in this world, which is sinful. Personally, I think that what is meant by "hate" regarding Esau, is that God was "repulsed" by what Esau represented, which is the flesh nature in mankind.
In this view, Esau represents the flesh, and Jacob represents the spirit in mankind.
Reason I ask is because let's just say someone who has it easy in life becomes a Christian and gets saved.
Then you have someone whose had it very rough in life who doesn't get saved.
How is that fair?
Its like almost from the start that God loved the person who had it easy in life and hated the person whose had it rough.
Let's take the story of Jacob and Esau.
Is it fair to say God disliked Esau from the start,while he was in the womb?
I am not clear as to whether God loves all, especially because of verses like these:
Psa 5:5-6- The foolish shall not stand in they sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man
Psa 11:5- The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Rom 9:13- As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Lev 20:23b- for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
Prov 16:4- The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Jude 4- For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hos 9:15- All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
The example you gave (guy A has a good life and goes to glory. guy B lives in the pits and then burns in hell) reinforces my doubts about a universal love of God.
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