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These places are inventions by man. The idea of hell did not come from the Old Testament. Some authors of the Hebrew Bible deny even that much of an afterlife. The books of Job and Ecclesiastes directly indicate that the end of life is the end of the story: no post-mortem existence. Jesus and Paul had a disbelief of eternal hell.
These places are inventions by man. The idea of hell did not come from the Old Testament. Some authors of the Hebrew Bible deny even that much of an afterlife. The books of Job and Ecclesiastes directly indicate that the end of life is the end of the story: no post-mortem existence. Jesus and Paul had a disbelief of eternal hell.
What about references to the 'lake of fire', 'the pit'?
What about references to the 'lake of fire', 'the pit'?
What about them?
Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
These places are inventions by man. The idea of hell did not come from the Old Testament. Some authors of the Hebrew Bible deny even that much of an afterlife. The books of Job and Ecclesiastes directly indicate that the end of life is the end of the story: no post-mortem existence. Jesus and Paul had a disbelief of eternal hell.
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Originally Posted by rstevens62
What about references to the 'lake of fire', 'the pit'?
Terms such as "hell," "lake of fire," and "the pit" are best viewed from the understanding of Jews including Jesus right up through the first century. Diesel350z is correct about ancient Jews view of death = no after life. Rather, the hope of living again depended on being "called" back to life by the Creator. Jews were familiar with the concept of resurrection. In fact, Jesus corrected a group of them who did not believe in resurrection.
In the Book of Revelation, John reveals what the lake of fire is. It's Gehenna. It's the second death. Second death means no resurrection.
" And death and the Grave*were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire"-Revelation 20:14,15
Jesus used parables. What are parables? Fictional characters and fictional places used to teach a point.
"Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. ”-Matthew 13:34, 35.
So when we read Mark 9:47,48 the original word was NOT hell but Gehenna. Jews including Jesus did not view Gehenna as mainline Christians view it today. It's important to understand what the people understood during the time that the books of the Bible were written.
When we read about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke Jesus is using a parable. There is no literal fiery place.
In the Book of Revelation, John reveals what the lake of fire is. It's Gehenna. It's the second death.
Second death means no resurrection.
The idea of a fire that consumes you is utter nonsense, as is being tormented forever and ever.
Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action. And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subject’s response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall besaved; yet so as by fire.
The idea of a fire that consumes you is utter nonsense, as is being tormented forever and ever.
Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action. And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subject’s response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall besaved; yet so as by fire.
The idea of a fire that consumes you is utter nonsense, as is being tormented forever and ever.
Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action. And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subject’s response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall besaved; yet so as by fire.
That can't be right, evangelicals tell us fire is for torment not saving.
That can't be right, evangelicals tell us fire is for torment not saving.
They need to know this...yet they don't want to. What they do not understand is what the fire is.
Romans 12:20
To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
The fundies would have you believe in literal fire....I think the fire is purifying love and the punishment is remorse. Saved by the fire, not destroyed by it. Only the old nature and impure things get roasted. If the act of punishment is not corrective, then it is just mean and unforgiving. God does not throw the baby out with the bath water.
What about references to the 'lake of fire', 'the pit'?
As touched upon already, it makes no sense to imagine that living beings known as “Death” or “Hades” are literally thrown into a lake boiling with fire to be punished forever. This is describing the ultimate destruction of all that is opposed to God. God is the author of life. Death is his enemy, and it, along with the entire realm of the dead, will be destroyed, permanently. They will not exist anymore. That is why the lake is called “the second death.” It is the final annihilation of all that is dead. Including all humans who are dead. For them there is no more life, ever.
Terms such as "hell," "lake of fire," and "the pit" are best viewed from the understanding of Jews including Jesus right up through the first century. Diesel350z is correct about ancient Jews view of death = no after life. Rather, the hope of living again depended on being "called" back to life by the Creator. Jews were familiar with the concept of resurrection. In fact, Jesus corrected a group of them who did not believe in resurrection.
Some ancient Hebrews may not have believed in life after death, but others did. If there had been no concept of life after death among the Hebrews there would have been no need to prohibit attempts to contact the dead.
Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer 11]or one who calls up the dead.
Nor would king Saul have sought out a medium to contact the dead prophet Samuel.
Quote:
In the Book of Revelation, John reveals what the lake of fire is. It's Gehenna. It's the second death. Second death means no resurrection.
" And death and the Grave*were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire"-Revelation 20:14,15
Jesus used parables. What are parables? Fictional characters and fictional places used to teach a point.
"Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. ”-Matthew 13:34, 35.
So when we read Mark 9:47,48 the original word was NOT hell but Gehenna. Jews including Jesus did not view Gehenna as mainline Christians view it today. It's important to understand what the people understood during the time that the books of the Bible were written.
When we read about Lazarus and the rich man in Luke Jesus is using a parable. There is no literal fiery place.
The concept of the lake of fire comes right out of the 2nd temple period book of 1 Enoch. It is not a Christian invention.
As for the term Gehenna, The valley of Gehenna was thought to be a gateway to a place of fire deep within the earth. You can read the details in the entry for Gehenna in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
12 with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is 13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and 14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever.
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