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No, I'm not talking about reincarnation. I believe we were created by God the Eternal Father prior to the creation of this world and lived as adult spirits in His presence for many billions of years before coming to earth. I believe He knew us personally and loved us deeply. He gave us the opportunity to come to earth for a time and to experience mortality. This human spirit we had was infused into the body of the tiny baby growing in its mother's womb and is eternal. It will someday leave that body at death, and continue to exist as a cognizant entity until such time as the body it inhabited is resurrected, made perfect and given new life. At that point, the spirit returns to the body it inhabited during mortality and is judged by God, who will grant admission to the heavenly realm. The resurrected body will never again die, or be subject to disease or injury.
What I want to talk about is the pre-mortal existence of mankind. I'll leave the scriptural support for a later post. While this doctrine is not taught by any Christian denomination other than mine, over the years it has been expressed by a number of literary figures, who have sensed this connection man has with a past life in Heaven.
William Wordsworth wrote:
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Alfred Lord Tennyson wrote:
...We say, "All this hath been before,
All this hath been, I know not when or where."
So, friend, when first I looked upon your face,
Our thought gave answer, each to each, so true,
Opposed mirrors each reflecting each--
Altho' I knew not in what time or place,
Methought that I had often met with you,
And lived in each other's mind and speech.
Henry Vaughn wrote:
Happy those early days, when I
Shin'd in my Angel-Infancy!
Before I understood this place
Appointed for my second race,
Or taught my soul to fancy aught
But a white celestial thought:
When yet I had not walked above
A mile or two from my first Love,
And looking back--at that short space--
Could see a glimpse of His bright face.
And Traherne wrote:
How like an Angel came I down!
How bright are all things here!
When first among his Works I did appear
O how their Glory me did crown?
The World resembled his Eternitie.
Heaven has always felt like home to me. When I go there, I believe I it will be a return to where I began my existence. I will once again behold the faces of my Heavenly parents and my Savior, Jesus Christ.
Looking for respectful dialogue on the subject of man's pre-mortal existence.
I think your on to something. When I read NDEs, they all say the same thing over and over...they all had a feeling of returning home. Why is that? God says He knew us before He formed us in the womb so I think your correct.
I'm finding this interesting. Apart from Jeremiah 1:5, which a couple of people have suggested an alternate meaning for, the other three passages I posted have been essentially ignored by everyone except for BF, who called the whole idea of a pre-mortal existence "a fairy tale." I didn't expect anyone to agree with me, and was kind of surprised to find some historical support from Clear. Apparently the rest of you don't really have any scriptural support for your belief that God created the spirit of man at birth. It's just something you've always been taught and have assumed to be true. I have at least provided some evidence for my belief.
Jeremiah 1:4-5 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
“Before I knew thee in the womb” could be interpreted different ways. I lean towards the idea that God is speaking of His foreknowledge. But I could be wrong.
Critics will most certainly say that the Lord "knew of" Jeremiah before he was born, but that's not what the passage says. It says He knew him. It says God sanctified him and ordained him. One must exist in order to be sanctified or ordained. They can't just be a thought in the mind of God.Again, this is only my opinion. I see no reason why this couldn’t mean God knew the man Adam would become. I’m not saying I’m right, and you’re wrong.
Several of the early Church Fathers commented on the passage, suggesting that it had a universal application. For instance, Clement of Alexandria, wrote:
"…the Logos is not to be despised as something new, for even in Jeremiah the Lord says, 'Say not "I am too young," for before I formed thee in the womb I knew thee, and before thou camest forth from thy mother I sanctified thee.' It is possible that in speaking these things the prophet is referring to us, as being known to God as faithful before the foundation of the world." Source: Clement of Alexandria, in Patrologiae… Graeca, 8:321
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Why doesn't this verse say that the spirit shall be received by God? It says it will return to God. It could not possibly return to someplace it had never been before.
I don’t think we can build a doctrine on what the Holy Spirit didn’t say. Imho, our undeveloped bodies, souls and spirits are formed at conception. Again, I could be wrong, and this is only my personal opinion, which doesn’t mean anything.
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Concerning the creation and the foundations of this earth, Job 38 says, "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Who were the "sons of God [who] shouted for joy" if not us?
I don’t think it was “us” since man hadn’t been created yet. I’ve concluded that the Sons of God are angels because man was last in the creation.
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John 9:1-3 in the New Testament clearly suggests that the pre-mortal existence of man was a reality the early followers of Christ understood. It says, "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
The important thing about this passage is not what Jesus said, but what He didn't say. Here we have a man blind from birth. His disciples wondered why He was blind. Was it something his parents did or something he himself did for which he was being punished by being born blind. Jesus, of course, said that neither the man nor his parents had sinned, but that he was born blind so that God's power to heal could be manifest. Clearly the disciples considered the possibility that the man "born blind" could have sinned. But when, since he was born blind, could this have been if not in the pre-mortal realm? They believed in a pre-mortal existence; otherwise they would not have asked the question. Jesus could have and probably would have corrected them and said something like, "When could he have possibly have sinned if he was born blind? He didn't even exist until the moment of his birth." He would have clarified their misunderstanding, and yet He didn't, because it wasn't a misunderstanding at all!
Again, I don’t believe you can build Christian doctrine on what Jesus did not say.
I’ve concluded that my salvation is not dependent on knowing whether or not our spirits existed before we were conceived. If God thought it necessary for us to know, I believe He would have made it clear. All I can do personally is speculate.
Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed it.
Kate
Last edited by MissKate12; 04-06-2024 at 10:31 AM..
I'm finding this interesting. Apart from Jeremiah 1:5, which a couple of people have suggested an alternate meaning for, the other three passages I posted have been essentially ignored by everyone except for BF, who called the whole idea of a pre-mortal existence "a fairy tale." I didn't expect anyone to agree with me, and was kind of surprised to find some historical support from Clear. Apparently the rest of you don't really have any scriptural support for your belief that God created the spirit of man at birth. It's just something you've always been taught and have assumed to be true. I have at least provided some evidence for my belief.
Well, I did address Job 38:7 in post #22, as well as Jeremiah 1:5. God's foreknowledge of Jeremiah would certainly explain God knowing Jeremiah.
Physics can also explain it. In physics there is the concept of 'block time' which if true means that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. That is, the past still exists, the present exists, and the future already exists. But we can only experience the present moment. But if God is outside of time then he can see it all at once. So in that case God could know each and every one of us before we were born. Just a thought.
The Bible DOESN'T say anything about when our spirit came into existence so the Bible really can't be used to argue against a pre-mortal existence, but I don't think there are any passages that can be used to definitively argue dogmatically for a pre-mortal existence either.
I agree totally. That is why I can’t be dogmatic about it.
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Jeremiah 1:4-5 for instance could simply be referring to God's foreknowledge and Job 38:7 (sons of God - bene ha Elohim) need not refer to humans. To my understanding, in the Old Testament the phrase bene ha elohim always refers to angels but never to men (and of course the nation Israel was called God's son). It's different in the New Testament where the phrase 'sons of God' refers to humans being adopted into the family of God upon faith in Christ.
You are 100% correct, and I’m glad you pointed out the differences between the Old and New Testaments.
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But I'm not dogmatically saying that our spirits didn't pre-exist our physical birth. I simply don't know and won't pretend (I'm not implying that you are pretending to know either, Katz) to know one way or the other.
I don’t think it was “us” since man hadn’t been created yet. I’ve concluded that the Sons of God are angels because man was last in the creation.
My belief is that this is evidence (not proof) that our spirits (which are the essence of who we are) had been created yet. No, our physical bodies had not been created and would not be until our conception.
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I’ve concluded that my salvation is not dependent on knowing whether or not our spirits existed before we were conceived.
I don't believe our salvation is dependent on knowing this, either, but I want all the knowledge I can personally receive and I believe there is enough biblical evidence for a pre-mortal existence (where there is NONE for the idea that our spirits were created when we were born) for people to at least consider its truthfulness. Also, knowing that I choose to come here makes the hard times easier to understand. Without the knowledge of a pre-mortal existence and believing that we just began to exist at birth is, for me, like walking in at the beginning of the second act of a three-act play. You don't know how it started and you don't have a really firm understanding of why God sent you to earth in the first place or why we must all accept the fact that there will be hardships in our life. Feeling as if I actually knew God personally before I came here is an enormous blessing in my life. I'm not really expecting people who don't believe this to accept my word for it.
I’m a spiritual Christian, not a religious Christian for 50+ years now.
I believe we are eternal souls/spirits that are having an experience being human in order to grow and mature spiritually. Then we go back HOME with God.
I’ve been studying the credible NDEs for about ten years now. I believe they are a gift being given to us now in this modern highly secular world.
Since it has recently become such a phenomenon , there is unfortunately a lot of phony profiteering and made up stories happening.
But The NDEs with verified OBEs — majority come back saying they were in spirit form and KNEW they were back HOME -and many experience the LOVE and amazing light of God—but are then sent back here to accomplish and grow spiritually.
By verified OBEs I mean those that saw and heard the conversations and actions and visual details from outside their bodies which the details were later verified by the doctors, nurses, staff or relatives.
By verified NDEs I mean the ones with medical evidence and records showing they were actually dead.
I’m a spiritual Christian, not a religious Christian for 50+ years now. I believe we are eternal souls/spirits that are having an experience being human in order to grow and mature spiritually. Then we go back HOME with God.
I’ve been studying the credible NDEs for about ten years now. I believe they are a gift being given to us now in this modern highly secular world.
Since it has recently become such a phenomenon , there is unfortunately a lot of phony profiteering and made up stories happening.
But The NDEs with verified OBEs — majority come back saying they were in spirit form and KNEW they were back HOME -and many experience the LOVE and amazing light of God—but are then sent back here to accomplish and grow spiritually.
By verified OBEs I mean those that saw and heard the conversations and actions and visual details from outside their bodies which the details were later verified by the doctors, nurses, staff or relatives.
By verified NDEs I mean the ones with medical evidence and records showing they were actually dead.
I think that too… with the OP I am only questioning the idea that we were individually adult spirit beings in a pre-mortal existence
I think it fits together more that there is progress in both realms/dimensions
I see it more that as we as humanity advance from immaturity to maturity, that is also true in the spiritual realms and dimensions and the 2 are linked or mirrored
I find it hard to explain my ideas as they are not set in concrete so to speak
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