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Please tell me what you get from those verses then, sir? Paraphrase it for me. Let me start it for you:
"I don't accept women teaching men nor to exercise authority over them and they should keep silent BECAUSE...."
Hi Deguire,
The verse in 1 Corin is partly about the culture of the day. I will explain in a minute but let's look at the verses:
1 Corin. 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 ¶ Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
This is very often mis-taught.
The way that this is brought forth in the Greek makes this a 'figure of speech called a 'Zeugma'= the one verb being used for the two opposite things,' and it emphasises the fact that it is not so much the permitting, or the commanding, which IS important, but the act of speaking, and the condition of being under authority. Bullingers's Figures of Speech of the Bible. p. 133
What this is saying is not so much that the women are to be silent in the church but that they are to be under authority of God first and their husbands second.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
When you read something of this nature and you are only of the English tongue, it should be obvious that something is missing from the Greek. Back in I Corinthians 11:5, 13 we were told that women were to pray and prophesy in the church. However they were to have the veil over them, which is to say "Christ in them" all of the time. Now did Paul change his mind? Of course not. The course or figure of speech that this was written in the Greek is saying, "woman should not chatter in the church while the service is going on". However this applies to men also. No one should chatter in the church during the service, not the women, nor the men or even the children.
Remember that the whole church is the bride of Christ so the order is given in the feminine gender, but applies to the entire bride of Christ. Chatter is a distraction to the one teaching, and also to those who are trying to learn something that may be a bit difficult to understand with clarity. The course of the subject is to convey the message from God's Word and chatter interferes with that course. So questions should be asked later...at home.
I pray this helps you see God is not a chavinist.
Edited to add. I forgot to mention the culture thing. The men sat on one side of the room and the women sat on the other side. So that is why they were to ask their husbands later. Make sense?
Last edited by mshipmate; 02-19-2009 at 09:47 AM..
Hi Deguire,
The verse in 1 Corin is partly about the culture of the day. I will explain in a minute but let's look at the verses:
1 Corin. 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 ¶ Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
This is very often mis-taught.
The way that this is brought forth in the Greek makes this a 'figure of speech called a 'Zeugma'= the one verb being used for the two opposite things,' and it emphasises the fact that it is not so much the permitting, or the commanding, which IS important, but the act of speaking, and the condition of being under authority. Bullingers's Figures of Speech of the Bible. p. 133
What this is saying is not so much that the women are to be silent in the church but that they are to be under authority of God first and their husbands second.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
When you read something of this nature and you are only of the English tongue, it should be obvious that something is missing from the Greek. Back in I Corinthians 11:5, 13 we were told that women were to pray and prophesy in the church. However they were to have the veil over them, which is to say "Christ in them" all of the time. Now did Paul change his mind? Of course not. The course or figure of speech that this was written in the Greek is saying, "woman should not chatter in the church while the service is going on". However this applies to men also. No one should chatter in the church during the service, not the women, nor the men or even the children.
Remember that the whole church is the bride of Christ so the order is given in the feminine gender, but applies to the entire bride of Christ. Chatter is a distraction to the one teaching, and also to those who are trying to learn something that may be a bit difficult to understand with clarity. The course of the subject is to convey the message from God's Word and chatter interferes with that course. So questions should be asked later...at home.
i will concede a knowledge of the true value silence may have in relationships found(ed) by the Spirit Creator ("veni creator spiritus") -
but this has rather not worked or gone awry.
in the ancient cultures, such practice was part of normal life and had no need to be imposed on anyone to have them in subjection.
the so-called western lifestyle is fostering a spiritual absenteeism going with 24/7 business and occupation of body and mind that rarely allows for the practice of silent reception.
hence this leftover abusive dogma needs urgent attention and introspection, not from the authoritarian leaders, but from every individual caring enough about change.
Last edited by effie g-tad; 02-19-2009 at 10:07 AM..
i will concede a knowledge of the true value silence may have in relationships found(ed) by the Spirit Creator ("veni creator spiritus") -
but this has rather not worked or gone awry.
in the ancient cultures, such practice was part of normal life and had no need to be imposed on anyone to have them in subjection.
the so-called western lifestyle is fostering a spiritual absenteeism going with 24/7 business and occupation of body and mind that rarely allows for the practice of silent reception.
hence this leftover abusive dogma needs urgent attention and introspection, not from the authoritarian leaders, but from every individual caring enough about change.
Hi effie,
I am by no means trying to be a smart alec or offend you, but I have to say I don't understand what you're saying. I would like to agree or perhaps say an "amen' but I cannot.
We have many many threads on this subject..A search will probably answer your questions, unless you just desire to drag people into useless arguements. as the title of the thread invokes)BTW, I believe there is no gender difference in the church, we are equal in the eyes and heart of Gods,and the gifts are not gender oriented either..I am not subscribing to this thread and I am outta here for the day
It would not be a useless argument unless there is NO dispute as to what it is supposed to mean.
Fundz, I better see an answer from you over there or I will keep asking you the question I asked above.
Fundz, my question still stands. Are women supposed to be second class citizens in church because "God said so" or because there is some lingering resentment based on what we read in the scripture in the first post of this thread? The verse says NOTHING about God. What it does state is a personal bias by the writer based on an old ancient story. Is this a fair assessment?
Fundz, my question still stands. Are women supposed to be second class citizens in church because "God said so" or because there is some lingering resentment based on what we read in the scripture in the first post of this thread? The verse says NOTHING about God. What it does state is a personal bias by the writer based on an old ancient story. Is this a fair assessment?
Deguire,
Just curious did you read my reply to you?
Deguire,
Just curious did you read my reply to you?
I read it, but the scripture in question is in Timothy and not Corinthians. I understand the message was for the culture of that time, but in Timothy, the writer's bias seems to rise to the top and it has nothing to do with God, does it? Well this is unless we're willing to say God "inspired" the writer to order women to be silent in church and not usurp men because Eve was stupid.
I read it, but the scripture in question is in Timothy and not Corinthians. I understand the message was for the culture of that time, but in Timothy, the writer's bias seems to rise to the top and it has nothing to do with God, does it? Well this is unless we're willing to say God "inspired" the writer to order women to be silent in church and not usurp men because Eve was stupid.
My bad. I just assumed you were referring to Corin.
Again culture plays a part in these passages, but the important thing to remember when intrepreting a section of Scripture is to find the subject. The subject is not 'women' it's 'learning.'
1 Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
The important word in this passage is " to learn," but it's not necessarily telling JUST women to be silent.
Many people take this verse to far, for it is important that both men and woman sit and learn in silence and be in subjection to those in authority that are doing the teaching.
The subject that we are talking about here is "learning" from the Word of God. When God's Word is being taught anywhere, there should be respect for the Word, and those doing the teaching. When you are in a church service and there is talking and moving around that distract others, then knowledge is going forth, and people are being robbed from what they came to hear. This is why there should be silence within the service, and every thing must be done with order and respect for the house of God.
There is nothing that anyone has to say in a service, that is more important than what God's Word has to say. If you think that your words are more important, than leave for you are missing the truth anyhow, and you are disturbing those around you.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Note Timothy is saying "I don't allow woman to teach. "But why? Because he thought women were inferior? No, but because he knew the suffering that anyone that taught the Word of God would receive at the hands of priests and religious leaders, and he did not desire that to come on the Christian ladies of the church.
This was a dangerous time to teach the Word of God, and Timothy's intent was that the men should take the stand, have the backbone and preach the Word with all the risks that were present.
Paul knew those risks to those that he taught, for he carried the letter from the high priests, those sons of Satan, that had no respect for women in any manner. In fact, he was carrying the letter when he was on that road to Damascus to do just this to the men and women that were preaching and teaching God's Word. It was very embarrassing to the ladies, and even caused many of their deaths. Paul is now saying here that "I give you the liberty and the authority to not do it, to not teach and preach, and cause you to be placed is such danger.
Paul was trying to protect all woman from the kind of treatment that was expected in those days to be give any one that preached or taught. As far as silence goes in the church, no matter who is speaking during a church service, no man woman or child should be allowed to speak and carry on when another is teaching the Word. Paul gave the woman the liberty to keep still and not teach if she did not want to, for this sake.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
This is true that man was formed first from the dust of the earth, and a man should be in the role of a man, and a woman should be in the role of the woman, and a man is to the family as Christ is to His church.
The man is suppoe to be as Christ was for his wife and children. Christ gave everything that he had for His bride and wife. Jesus Christ put his children first in everything even His very Life.
Today some husbands and the preachers like to play the role of the man and wheel their authority over their little woman, but they refuse to take on the other responsibilities of the man, which in part changes the entire relationship that Paul is teaching here.
BTW, a Christian wife should not be in total spiritual subjection to a non-Christian husband. It just won't work in God's Word.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
In a far out way this is true, but we know that Adam followed along and also partook of the same thing that Eve partook of. So he was, as you put it, Deguire, just as stupid as Eve. Not I'm going to say he was more stupid then Eve since he was the man, the head of the family.
Please tell me what you get from those verses then, sir? Paraphrase it for me. Let me start it for you:
"I don't accept women teaching men nor to exercise authority over them and they should keep silent BECAUSE...."
Here you go, first it was Paul giving his opinion. Now if we take the writing into context, we all know that men are lazy when it comes to church work and how best to motivate the men than to stop the women?
Then there is another aspect as Fundy pointed out, God has a system of order that if used appropriately will make things better, but as we all know man has difficulty abeying God and His plans and that is why we have such chaos in the world.
My bad. I just assumed you were referring to Corin.
Again culture plays a part in these passages, but the important thing to remember when intrepreting a section of Scripture is to find the subject. The subject is not 'women' it's 'learning.'
1 Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
The important word in this passage is " to learn," but it's not necessarily telling JUST women to be silent.
Many people take this verse to far, for it is important that both men and woman sit and learn in silence and be in subjection to those in authority that are doing the teaching.
The subject that we are talking about here is "learning" from the Word of God. When God's Word is being taught anywhere, there should be respect for the Word, and those doing the teaching. When you are in a church service and there is talking and moving around that distract others, then knowledge is going forth, and people are being robbed from what they came to hear. This is why there should be silence within the service, and every thing must be done with order and respect for the house of God.
There is nothing that anyone has to say in a service, that is more important than what God's Word has to say. If you think that your words are more important, than leave for you are missing the truth anyhow, and you are disturbing those around you.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Note Timothy is saying "I don't allow woman to teach. "But why? Because he thought women were inferior? No, but because he knew the suffering that anyone that taught the Word of God would receive at the hands of priests and religious leaders, and he did not desire that to come on the Christian ladies of the church.
This was a dangerous time to teach the Word of God, and Timothy's intent was that the men should take the stand, have the backbone and preach the Word with all the risks that were present.
Paul knew those risks to those that he taught, for he carried the letter from the high priests, those sons of Satan, that had no respect for women in any manner. In fact, he was carrying the letter when he was on that road to Damascus to do just this to the men and women that were preaching and teaching God's Word. It was very embarrassing to the ladies, and even caused many of their deaths. Paul is now saying here that "I give you the liberty and the authority to not do it, to not teach and preach, and cause you to be placed is such danger.
Paul was trying to protect all woman from the kind of treatment that was expected in those days to be give any one that preached or taught. As far as silence goes in the church, no matter who is speaking during a church service, no man woman or child should be allowed to speak and carry on when another is teaching the Word. Paul gave the woman the liberty to keep still and not teach if she did not want to, for this sake.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
This is true that man was formed first from the dust of the earth, and a man should be in the role of a man, and a woman should be in the role of the woman, and a man is to the family as Christ is to His church.
The man is suppoe to be as Christ was for his wife and children. Christ gave everything that he had for His bride and wife. Jesus Christ put his children first in everything even His very Life.
Today some husbands and the preachers like to play the role of the man and wheel their authority over their little woman, but they refuse to take on the other responsibilities of the man, which in part changes the entire relationship that Paul is teaching here.
BTW, a Christian wife should not be in total spiritual subjection to a non-Christian husband. It just won't work in God's Word.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
In a far out way this is true, but we know that Adam followed along and also partook of the same thing that Eve partook of. So he was, as you put it, Deguire, just as stupid as Eve. Not I'm going to say he was more stupid then Eve since he was the man, the head of the family.
MsShipmate, from what we know of the world of both the world of the Old and New Testament, it seems more plausible to think that the writer of both Corinthians and Timothy were simply going along with the social mores of their day, that is, women were seen as second class citizens and beneath men. In the Old Testament in Moses' day, women were NOT allowed to sit in the company of men in the tabernacle. They were to sit outside, if I recall, in a separate room. By New Testament times, this changed to the point women could now sit inside the synagogues but still separate from the men and STILL had no say or position of authority.
I will admit that early Christianity made some advances in terms of women (which may have more to do with the surrounding dominant cultures than their beliefs), but the society in which it started, women were still seen as suspect because of Eve and other women like Jezebel. It appears that it was when Christianity went amongst the Gentiles such as the far more liberated Greek culture, it (like other things) began to clash with the beliefs of the Jewish culture from which it sprang. If I recall, Timothy was pastor at Ephesus, I believe. The writer who wrote to Timothy and the Corinthian church had to deal with these culture clashes, one of them being the brazenness of the Gentile women Christians and even the men.
What I heard when I was in church and now is that we try to sanitize these passages with elaborate explanations colored by our own times as opposed to seeing them within the context of their times. In my estimation, this has much to do with the ramifications that comes about in relation to a loving Jesus, good God and inspired writers who had the best interest of women at heart.
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