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For those who do I pray that they will adjust quickly when they are staring down the barel of a mark of the beast. I pray they feel the comfort of the Lord when they watch there family persicuted.
See, this gets near to being a perfect example of what I tried to make pre-tribbers recognize in this thread. Third Party freely admits he's never seen "pre-tribulation" in the Bible. Yet he's been so indoctrinated by the movie script that hucksters have sold all the pre-tribbers that he can't even admit the whole scenario might be phony. Notice I didn't say, "is phony" I said "might be phony" because there is always the chance it is. From a therapeutic POV I want all readers to notice that this is post #22; I've had numerous responses from a few pre-tribbers, yet not one chose to honestly answer my question: what would you have to see to make you consider, not change your mind, just consider that you might be wrong in your belief. Instead, they all started to "deflect", which is to keep the subject matter intact, yet try to turn the focus from them possibly being wrong to trying to convince the OP that he, not "might be" wrong, but definitely "IS" wrong. They gave no consideration to the fact that I rose to my own challenge and freely admitted that if I saw certain things as outlined by LGPE, I would change my mind in a hurry. Not one pre-tribber here was willing to do the same thing, and I can tell you why: because the fear of missing the rapture because of their momentary lapse of faith in it is so terrifying to them that they switch to tunnel vision when the question comes up and just forge straight ahead, never daring to look side to side (think about whether or not the pre-trib rapture could be a sham) because to do so in their minds is to acknowledge they have doubts about it and that could cause Jesus to leave them behind to face the wrath of the antichrist and being beheaded for their faith. I mean I've seen Christians literally quake in their boots when we talked about what might happen if the rapture came and we got left behind. Get-rich-quickers like HL, JVI, GJ, & especially TLH exploit this fear to the nth degree to get pre-tribbers to lap this stuff up because they know pre-tribbers are their meal ticket--they number in the millions and are suckers for parting with their money to read about the rapture. How many pre-tribbers actually know, I wonder, that 98% of these authors' audience ARE pre-tribbers. Nobody outside of the close-knit Christian pre-tribber crowd actually went to see any of the Left Behind movies or bought the books, maybe a few critics and some curious onlookers, but that was it. The vast pool of millions of dollars all this stuff earned came from the pre-tribbers who didn't need convincing about the theory of the rapture--they're sold hook, line and sinker on it--it's just that every so often they need a fix, like a drug addict needs some drug before going into withdrawls. If pre-tribbers don't get that fix via supporting each other's waning confidence like over at RITA ("come on, hang in there, Kelly, don't get discouraged; the rapture's gonna happen any day now"), or reading a volume of Left Behind to bolster their flagging enthusiasm, then actually confronting the reality of the rapture never getting here as the weeks and years grind on might crush them like a pancake. Come on, tell me honestly: was it really necessary to write THIRTEEN--count 'em--THIRTEEN VOLUMES to get what most Christian critics called a third-rate storyline told?? What defenders of the series conveniently forget is that each volume represents an additional couple of million $$$'s in royalties for the authors. You think they're stupid enough to give up a cash cow like that by limiting themselves to just three or four novels??? And so that's why pre-tribbers don't dare respond honestly to my question. They're not psychologically capable of it. They could't actually type the words out. Their hands would freeze on the keyboard. So I'm not surprised no one bothered to reply except to try to point out that I'm the one who's wrong and that I'd better change my POV real quick or I'll get "left behind". Sometimes the truth hurts, even for Christians, but it has to be told. If anyone replies, I just hope they reply in Christian love.
wilvan, I saw your post to my Four Moons comment on the other thread AFTER I posted this, so anything offensive I might have said here does not apply to you. I want you to know that right off.
Thanks for the response Preterist. Many would rather change the meaning of words than believe the text. Some will do anything to wiggle out when confronted with truth, instead of humbly changing their position. I have had to change my position in this area, and it was a very humbling experience, and I am still open to change if confronted with the truth.
That's why i wrote this extended post, jeapostle, not to offend anyone, but to try to get the dispensationlists to face the possibility that they COULD be errant in their beliefs (you and I both know they are but we have to be careful how we approach carrying the truth to them). I notice that, as a rule, preterists are well-educated in Christian theology; many have come over from the "dark side" of dispensationalism after having made a thorough study of both positions. Most dispensationlists appear to have gotten their theological training out of the "Left Behind" saga and will not budge an inch even when politely challenged to reconsider their beliefs.
That's why i wrote this extended post, jeapostle, not to offend anyone, but to try to get the dispensationlists to face the possibility that they COULD be errant in their beliefs (you and I both know they are but we have to be careful how we approach carrying the truth to them). I notice that, as a rule, preterists are well-educated in Christian theology; many have come over from the "dark side" of dispensationalism after having made a thorough study of both positions. Most dispensationlists appear to have gotten their theological training out of the "Left Behind" saga and will not budge an inch even when politely challenged to reconsider their beliefs.
Dear Thrillobyte,
The refusal to budge, even on one point, when confronted with truth, is called STUBBORNNESS. STUBBORNNESS is as INIQUITY AND IDOLATRY (1 Sam.15:23). I believe a system of interpretation can become an idol. People will worship it, and react strongly when it is challenged. We have to be careful we don't make our systems idols. We must be humble enough to discard any idols in our life, and worship the true God, Jesus Christ.
Amen, jeapostle. I couldn't agree with you more! I'm willing to consider just about any position as long as irrefutable evidence is offered me. I was a hardcore pre-tribber for over 35 years until I decided to do a thorough investigation. "Study to show thyself approved". The evidence laid side by side was uncontestable: pre-tribulationism was not a sound doctrine. But I didn't arrive at that POV until I saw much of the arguments against it in their original Greek texts. Scofield has sabotaged the Bible, as many wolves-in-sheep's-clothes translators have done to advance their personal theological agendas.
thrillobyte, if you studied to show yourself approved you would know that by correctly cutting or rightly dividing that the saints of the Jews go through the great tribulation and the saints of the nations do not.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
If anyone replies, I just hope they reply in Christian love.
So, does this mean Christian love includes ridiculing sincere believers and calling them out by name? Does it include calling them indoctrinated, hucksters, dishonest, deflectors, pathologically fearful, terrified, people with tunnel vision, get-rich-quickers, meal tickets, suckers, addicts, unwilling to confront reality, easily crushed, and psychologically unstable? Does it include hinting throughout the thread that pre-tribbers are ignorant?
Perhaps you're not getting the answers you desire because it appears you have no interest in discussing the topic honestly and with respect yourself. I haven't followed all your threads or read all of the responses, but I've seen enough to know that you misrepresent the pre-tribulation viewpoint and mindset. I'm insulted, and I don't even consider myself pre-trib.
In your other thread, you "proved" that a pre-tribulation rapture is impossible because the dates don't line up for a 2015 second coming of Christ. I don't know a single pre-tribber in real life who is even aware of the 2015 scenario. A few are starting to speculate about 2012 because it has gotten so much attention in the secular media. The 2015 date isn't the only scenario, either. Some pre-tribbers have for years looked at 2017, but you don't mention that because you won't be able to refute it yet. In fact, most pre-tribbers refuse to speculate on any kind of date, so your whole argument was a straw man that you knew you could easily refute. It makes you look like a genius and others look like idiots. That's not honesty, it's not rational, and it certainly isn't good logic. That's chicanery of the type you so easily ridicule in your OP.
Most pre-tribbers I know easily admit they'll change their stance when they see certain events take place or if they have good reason to believe they might. For some, the rise of the likely Anti-Christ is a definite deal breaker; others think they'll never see him, though, because they'll be "out of here". Others look for the Gog-Magog war or the Mark of the Beast. Some claim they'll change their minds if two witnesses come on the scene. Others say a preponderance of current events might get them to change their mind. In fact, I've known quite a few former pre-tribbers change their minds because of current events.
If you hang out on the prophecy boards as much as you claim, you should be aware of the above. So what is your real reason for starting these threads? From my point of view, it appears your intent is to be divisive because you're certainly not being honest.
ooof! Where to start???????? Blueberry, are you really interested in engaging in a friendly little debate with me? No long post filled w/ cut and pastes, just short exchanges as we tackle the issues. Up for it? I am.
There is no pre-tribulation rapture for the saints of Israel.
There is a pre-tribulation rapture for the saints of the nations.
Greetings again, Eusebius. Where is the pre-tribulation rapture clearly taught in the Scriptures? Where do we read about a tribulation and a rapture in the same passage?
Preterist
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That's not honesty, it's not rational, and it certainly isn't good logic. That's chicanery of the type you so easily ridicule in your OP.
Blueberry, are you really interested in engaging in a friendly little debate with me? No long post filled w/ cut and pastes, just short exchanges as we tackle the issues. Up for it? I am. 
