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For Non-Tribbers it's simple: we get raptured. Then preterist, jeapostle and I will have eternity to spend apologizing to wilvan, shana, ironmaw and the others here for all the nasty things we said (but didn't really mean to say)
But what about the flip side? I know many pre-tribbers will respond (if they bother to invest the effort) with things like "Well, we're not wrong." Or "It'll happen, you'll see." But these are not the replies I'm looking for. I'm calling on those who will make an honest effort to seriously address the question.
Being an ex pre-tribber, I'm aware of the four blood moons theory by Biltz that caused so much excitement last year. The blood moons supposedly herald Christ's return on Rosh Hashana of September 13, 2015. This is a once in every five-hundred-or-so-years event, yet oddly it happened last in 1967 (the taking of Jerusalem) and before that 1949 (the establishment of Israel). Before 1949 the last time it happened was in 1492. Coincidence? Good question. It next happens in 2015, again on the four major feast days of 2014-2015. It won't happen again this century. As signs go, this is BIG!!!
There's only one small monkey-wrench in all this: there's not enough time to fit a seven-year tribulation period into the time between now and Sept. 13, 2015, not even a shortened trib of 2300 days if one subscribes to that theory.
So is a pre-trib rapture out? Are pre-tribbers now stuck with a mid-trib rapture by default? I've already shown by irrefutable proof that a pre-trib rapture CANNOT occur by 2015. Yet pre-tribbers close their eyes and keep on insisting it will come. Sort of makes one's jaw drop to the ground and eyes go when one sees that kind of denial. So I'm asking in all sincerity: what would it take, if not the uncontestable proof that Christ will NOT return in 2015 (assuming we have to have a 7-year tribulation preceding it) to at least make the pre-tribbers question their stand on the rapture?
For Non-Tribbers it's simple: we get raptured. Then preterist, jeapostle and I will have eternity to spend apologizing to wilvan, shana, ironmaw and the others here for all the nasty things we said (but didn't really mean to say)
But what about the flip side? I know many pre-tribbers will respond (if they bother to invest the effort) with things like "Well, we're not wrong." Or "It'll happen, you'll see." But these are not the replies I'm looking for. I'm calling on those who will make an honest effort to seriously address the question.
Being an ex pre-tribber, I'm aware of the four blood moons theory by Biltz that caused so much excitement last year. The blood moons supposedly herald Christ's return on Rosh Hashana of September 13, 2015. This is a once in every five-hundred-or-so-years event, yet oddly it happened last in 1967 (the taking of Jerusalem) and before that 1949 (the establishment of Israel). Before 1949 the last time it happened was in 1492. Coincidence? Good question. It next happens in 2015, again on the four major feast days of 2014-2015. It won't happen again this century. As signs go, this is BIG!!!
There's only one small monkey-wrench in all this: there's not enough time to fit a seven-year tribulation period into the time between now and Sept. 13, 2015, not even a shortened trib of 2300 days if one subscribes to that theory.
So is a pre-trib rapture out? Are pre-tribbers now stuck with a mid-trib rapture by default? I've already shown by irrefutable proof that a pre-trib rapture CANNOT occur by 2015. Yet pre-tribbers close their eyes and keep on insisting it will come. Sort of makes one's jaw drop to the ground and eyes go when one sees that kind of denial. So I'm asking in all sincerity: what would it take, if not the uncontestable proof that Christ will NOT return in 2015 (assuming we have to have a 7-year tribulation preceding it) to at least make the pre-tribbers question their stand on the rapture?
"What would have to occur for pre-tribbers to admit they were wrong"?'
IMO, the "SAME THING" that would cause anyone to admit they were wrong.....a humbling of some sort. That God is God, and He will do as He purpose? Maybe that?
So, the importance does not lay in whether you are pre-trib or post-trib, or whatever trib. It lies in: Do I respect/ trust Him, do whatsoever He will? That He is God, and that alone, by itself is enough for me, for you?
That it does'nt matter if I'm wrong, or they're wrong, she's wrong, he's wrong, my daddy's wrong, my mommy's wrong.......................but, that He's .................NOT WRONG!!
That He is the AUTHOR and FINISHER, and that's all right with me/you?
Just suppose.............
Last edited by Betsey Lane; 06-15-2009 at 07:47 PM..
Thanks for your input, Betsy. Let me speak as an ex-pre-tribber. The reason I decided it was all wrong was, first it just never seemed to come despite all the hundreds of calls I witnessed since 1970 when I first heard about it. Yes, I was really into it all those years, bought books (spend quite a bit of coin, too, as you can imagine) followed Doug Clark (does anyone remember him, the silver-haired nut who hosted, what was it, Armageddon Report on TBN back in the early 80's?) and Hal and all the others. And then despite, all the movement on the world scene I just never saw events firming up enough for a takeover by an antichrist. Even now, with 7 billion people on this planet I cannot possibly conceive one man taking over the entire operation. Oh, I could go on, but that's some of it. BUT--BIG BUT! If I were to see Israel go nuclear, or Russia attack Israel, or martial law suddenly imposed and an order to be chipped in our Rh or forehead by some charismatic leader who came onto the world scene suddenly, then yea, I'd switch back real quick, you can bet!
I don't care to respond to someone who is obsessed with proving the Rapture wrong and the people who know it's true. The name of the thread is an oxymoron, to say the least. And if you want to know why you aren't getting any responses then take a look at yourself and the obsession that everyone sees except you. Oh, and you might want to look at how many threads you started about it and the threads you've responded to concerning it, and how every one of your conversations turns into it. I feel like I'm speaking to a universalist.
I don't care to respond to someone who is obsessed with proving the Rapture wrong and the people who know it's true. The name of the thread is an oxymoron, to say the least. And if you want to know why you aren't getting any responses then take a look at yourself and the obsession that everyone sees except you. Oh, and you might want to look at how many threads you started about it and the threads you've responded to concerning it, and how every one of your conversations turns into it. I feel like I'm speaking to a universalist.
Everyone sees it? I don't see it? So "everyone" is not correct!
Thanks for your input, Betsy. Let me speak as an ex-pre-tribber. The reason I decided it was all wrong was, first it just never seemed to come despite all the hundreds of calls I witnessed since 1970 when I first heard about it. Yes, I was really into it all those years, bought books (spend quite a bit of coin, too, as you can imagine) followed Doug Clark (does anyone remember him, the silver-haired nut who hosted, what was it, Armageddon Report on TBN back in the early 80's?) and Hal and all the others. And then despite, all the movement on the world scene I just never saw events firming up enough for a takeover by an antichrist. Even now, with 7 billion people on this planet I cannot possibly conceive one man taking over the entire operation. Oh, I could go on, but that's some of it. BUT--BIG BUT! If I were to see Israel go nuclear, or Russia attack Israel, or martial law suddenly imposed and an order to be chipped in our Rh or forehead by some charismatic leader who came onto the world scene suddenly, then yea, I'd switch back real quick, you can bet!
Greetings, thrillobyte: No dispensationalist will admit error until he searches the Scriptures and comes to realize the real nature and timing of the Great Tribulation. WHEN Christ's disciples standing right there with Him saw the abomination of desolation as He predicted THEY would see (Matthew 24:15), THEN there was to be Great Tribulation. IF there was any rapture before that time, it happened to those of THAT generation as Paul clearly indicated (1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4).
Dispensationalists will never understand the Scriptures unless and until they stop wrongly making everything about them. The Tribulation, the Resurrection, the Judgment, and the Rapture are all past events. But they don't like that concept. Their pitiful, self-centered cry is always, "What about ME?" What about you? You weren't destined to see the plagues in Egypt. You weren't chosen to see the parting of the Red Sea. Your generation was not the one determined by God to enter the promised land and see the walls of Jericho come crashing down. You weren't destined to live during the time Christ walked upon this earth and performed His mighty miracles. And YOU were not selected to be the generation that would see Christ's return and be gathered together with Him!
When Jesus says YOU in Matthew 24 (cf. Mark 13 and Luke 21), dispensationalists immediately make it about THEM--but it was about those disciples right there with Jesus. When Paul says "we" when speaking of being changed in the twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMPET, dispensationalists erroneously exchange Paul's WE for YE as though he was speaking about THEM. When Paul said "WE who are alive shall be caught up together with them [the dead in Christ] to meet the Lord in the air," dispensationalists again wrongly turn the WE into YE, claiming again that Paul is speaking about THEM. But WE are NOT the YE of Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. If all of these things are not about the dispies, then they have supposedly lost their blessed hope. What they have lost is a correct understanding of the simple words of Scripture!
If the tribulation already came in the past, why did not our Lord return to save them out of it?
The tribulation is still future as John, who wrote Revelation in 96 A.D., attests. And we, believers of the nations, must meet the Lord in the air prior to that future tribulation.
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