Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Moreso on verse 4
The word for "desires" is not normally expresses God's will of decree (His eterna; purpose), but God's will of desire.This is a difference between God's desire and His etrnal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being, thus He hates its consequence which is eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest that glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels"...prepared for destruction for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Romans 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose only the elect out of the world (Jude 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving then to the consequences of their sin, unbelief and rejection of Christ (Romans 1:18-32). Ultimately God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desires.
In His ransom. This describes the result of Christ's substitutionary death for believers, which He did voluntarily and remind's one of Christ's own statement in (Mattew 20:28), "a ransome for many". The "all" is qualified by the "many". Not all will be ransomed (though His death would be sufficient) but only the many who believe by the work of the Holy Spirit and for whom the actual atonement was made. Christ did not pay a ransom only; He became the object of God's just wrath in the believer's place.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Amen!
What Fundy fails to realize is the REASON given why God will have all mankind to be saved: "for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all."
In the O.T. every human or animal that was ransomed HAD TO BE FREED! No if's and's or but's about it.
All mankind have been ransomed, therefore they must all be freed into God's salvation.
This truth cannot be gainsaid.
There is not one person or animal in the bible that was ransomed and not freed.
Also, Fundy, says His ransom was not for all or all does not mean "all mankind."
But the bible says:
Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Mankind came, not to be served, but to serve, and to give His soul a ransom for many."
"This is a difference between God's desire and His etrnal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires."
Nope this is redefining Gods declaration of what he desires TO DO.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
You can get your favorite translation out that changes "Who will have" to "Who desires" if you like, but there is one thing that no translation can change and that is who actually saves someone in the first place.
People can argue about "what" salvation is or "when" it actually takes place but that is also aside from the source of that salvation and who actually does it.
Since God declares a desire for all men to be saved, all men will only be saved iF GOD DOES IT.
1 Timothy 2:4 is a declaration of what God desires TO DO
and he also declares in scripture that ALL his desire he WILL DO.
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Moreso on verse 4
The word for "desires" is not normally expresses God's will of decree (His eterna; purpose), but God's will of desire.This is a difference between God's desire and His etrnal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being, thus He hates its consequence which is eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest that glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels"...prepared for destruction for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Romans 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose only the elect out of the world (Jude 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving then to the consequences of their sin, unbelief and rejection of Christ (Romans 1:18-32). Ultimately God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desires.
In His ransom. This describes the result of Christ's substitutionary death for believers, which He did voluntarily and remind's one of Christ's own statement in (Mattew 20:28), "a ransome for many". The "all" is qualified by the "many". Not all will be ransomed (though His death would be sufficient) but only the many who believe by the work of the Holy Spirit and for whom the actual atonement was made. Christ did not pay a ransom only; He became the object of God's just wrath in the believer's place.
Fundamentalist, why don't you just believe in the Word of God when it says that He does what He desires? If God desires all to be saved then it means that THEY INDEED WILL BE.
Here is from Strongs relating to the word translated as "will" in the KJV in verse 1 Tim 2:4:
G2309
θέλω, ἐθέλω
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).
I have bolded the part that shows this is CERTAINTY by means that it is DETERMINED that He will saved ALL. This word is ACTIVE and INDICATIVE which is a subjective impulse. To say it is just mere desire is to hold short what God's Word is actually saying here.
What Fundy fails to realize is the REASON given why God will have all mankind to be saved: "for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all."
In the O.T. every human or animal that was ransomed HAD TO BE FREED! No if's and's or but's about it.
All mankind have been ransomed, therefore they must all be freed into God's salvation.
This truth cannot be gainsaid.
There is not one person or animal in the bible that was ransomed and not freed.
Also, Fundy, says His ransom was not for all or all does not mean "all mankind."
But the bible says:
Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Mankind came, not to be served, but to serve, and to give His soul a ransom for many."
"He gave HIMSELF a ransom for A_L_L"
But not all will accept this. There is no getting around this fact. To give His Soul a ransom for M_A_N_Y!! When does M_A_N_Y mean A_L_L?? It does not, nor cannot, period. Here is what Charles had to say on the subject:
"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).
Thelo indicates not only willling something, but pressing onto action, is the equivalence to purpose, to be decided upon seeing one's desire to its execution. (Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study Bible); to wish or will implying volition and purpose, frequently a determination (Vines)
But not all will accept this. There is no getting around this fact. To give His Soul a ransom for M_A_N_Y!! When does M_A_N_Y mean A_L_L?? It does not, nor cannot, period. Here is what Charles had to say on the subject:
Scripture is not confined to only translating it to the word "many". This is men at play that says this.
Scripture is not confined to only translating it to the word "many". This is men at play that says this.
Well, many does mean many, and it was what the King of ALLLLL kings said. Are you going to take the word of a man to teach you or are you going to listen to the MAN who has given His Life for YOU??
Mat 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Mat 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven {will enter.}
By these 2 verses ALONE we can see that there will be M_A_N_Y that take the broad way to destruction, and NOT EVERYONE who says "Lord, LORD" will enter.
By a simple reason of 2+2 we can see that not everyone will enter into the Kingdom of heaven and MANY take the wrong path that leads to them being destroyed. So then, how can ALL be ALL that enter, when the King says they WONT?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
