Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Bob, I think that verse reflects on those that are learning and that do seek the Truth but haven't yet learned all to know on each subject. In other words they are conforming as opposed to those other that irrationally are rejecting.
Yeah, you're probably right Paul. Although it does seem that the weak in faith person in this passage is holding doctrines that are false or contrary. So I'm not sure exactly how that reconciles with the other passage.
Quote:
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Those that continue in doctrines that are contrary are to be avoided. At some point we have to conclude that some reasoning is irrational in light of the scriptures, especially when pursued with a contenious spirit not for edification but more for the debate that we are told is a work of the flesh.
I'd need to be as sure of my own doctrine as Paul was before being comformtable impelementing that. And what kind of doctrines is Paul taking about? All doctrines? Because it seems from the other passage that one can hold this day above that day, or claim that certain foods are unlawful at least for oneself, and still not be being "contrary". Yet those seem like "contrary" doctrines. So is Paul taking about those kind of doctrines (outwardly) or doctrines that would lead people to sin.
Yeah, you're probably right Paul. Although it does seem that the weak in faith person in this passage is holding doctrines that are false or contrary. So I'm not sure exactly how that reconciles with the other passage.
I'd need to be as sure of my own doctrine as Paul was before being comformtable impelementing that. And what kind of doctrines is Paul taking about? All doctrines? Because it seems from the other passage that one can hold this day above that day, or claim that certain foods are unlawful at least for oneself, and still not be being "contrary". Yet those seem like "contrary" doctrines. So is Paul taking about those kind of doctrines (outwardly) or doctrines that would lead people to sin.
I don't think it is a question of doctrines but rather heart. If their heart is not right (as someone that hold irrationally to a doctrine) then they are the ones to avoid. The ones that hold to contrary doctrines but have the right heart (they are just still ignorant of the Truth) are the ones we are to continue to embrace.
But it's one thing to believe God did not in fact intend evil because it was already there. It's another thing (in case you are wrong about that belief) to say that if God did intend evil from the beginning for some good reason(s) that God would be evil. Because it seems to me that you already believe that in certain circumstances and for certain good reasons, God can intend evil without being evil.
Bob, scriptures state that sin was in the world BEFORE the law but was not imputed unto man, and I would say sin is an evil.
Quote:
Reason 1) God did not save widows & lepers from evil because they were not seeking God.
Reason 2) God wants to try the faith of the saints, he wants them to 'take up their cross and follow Christ.
So I'm not saying there is any logical contradiction in God using the evil already there. The contradiction I see is in believing God can intend evil in some circumstances for some good reasons, but then to rule out the possibility of God having other good reasons and intending it from the beginning.
Why would you think reason 1 has anything to do with God intending evil?
There is a difference between the way we see evil Bob, you believe God planned for man to be disobedient so that he could learn the difference between good and evil by entering into sin.
That God planned man to sin is evil, it would be no different than if I raised up a child to be a murder from the time of its birth, kill, kill, kill would be all that child knew, would you conceder me a kind loving father or would I be an evil father?
To tell you what I see Bob I need an answer to this question, tis why I asked it to begin with.
Ok than what do you see as the reason God sent Christ?
Quote:
I don't know of even one scripture that contradicts God intending man to sin.
Bob there are many things we don’t find that scripture actually states, sometime we have to read between the lines as it were.
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Bob I know you think the road I am on is incorrect, that I am following after error, but brother take a close look at what you are saying in this thread.
God creates evil and intends man to sin.
This takes away any hope people have in serving God because God might intend for them to be evil and sin instead of serving Him, for what can man do if God intends otherwise.
Whys should we bother to love our brother because God might intend for us to do otherwise.
Whys should we reckon ourselves dead to sin because God might intend otherwise.
Why should we obey His voice because God might intend otherwise.
Bob, scriptures state that sin was in the world BEFORE the law but was not imputed unto man, and I would say sin is an evil.
I agree, but I don't see what point you are making.
Quote:
Why would you think reason 1 has anything to do with God intending evil?
Becuase if 100 people are lepers or in a drought and God save's only 1, either
1) God is powerless to save the other 99
2) God intends the other 99 to be lepers or dying of thirst
God must have had good reason for doing that or allowing that.
So logically speaking how can you say that God could not have had a different good reason from the beginning?
Quote:
There is a difference between the way we see evil Bob, you believe God planned for man to be disobedient so that he could learn the difference between good and evil by entering into sin.
I don't claim to know for sure God's good reason. Knowing good from evil is one possible reason among many. It was for Job to trust God even if Job was unable to dissect or fathom the exact reason for what God was doing.
Quote:
That God planned man to sin is evil, it would be no different than if I raised up a child to be a murder from the time of its birth, kill, kill, kill would be all that child knew, would you conceder me a kind loving father or would I be an evil father?
Quote:
To tell you what I see Bob I need an answer to this question, tis why I asked it to begin with.
I agree, that does seem evil. Yet there are tons of things in scripture that God does that seem evil to various degrees. Also, the analogy is far from perfect.
Quote:
Ok than what do you see as the reason God sent Christ?
To save us from our sins. To show us the Father and lead us to being perfect as the Father is perfect. In the absence of evil, Christ could not have shown us the Father by example, nor required us to actually follow that example.
Quote:
Bob there are many things we don’t find that scripture actually states, sometime we have to read between the lines as it were.
Sure.
Quote:
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Regarding the highlighted parts: Lamentations 3 says, "It is good for man to bear the yoke of hs youth" The yoke of his youth in context means bearing the wrath of God, the evil God sends for sin. So God sends evil, yet is "thinking no evil". Thinking evil is about heart & purpose.
Quote:
This takes away any hope people have in serving God because God might intend for them to be evil and sin instead of serving Him, for what can man do if God intends otherwise.
Quote:
Whys should we bother to love our brother because God might intend for us to do otherwise. Whys should we reckon ourselves dead to sin because God might intend otherwise. Why should we obey His voice because God might intend otherwise.
This presents a slanted view of what I believe. It pictures how you would think about my view if you adopted it, not how I actually think about it. It pictures God sitting up there deciding for me whether or not I will sin, and me sitting here, having no control over myself. In contrast, I picture myself in control of myself, yet being vastly flawed. God has already done His part (with regard to intending sin) by making me weak and flawed. God arranges circumstances to show my weaknesses and flaws, but I make the choices. God is not controlling me. Nothing outside of my heart/mind/will is making any decisions for me.
1. Why should we love our brother, etc? One reason -- because blessing is better than curse.
2. It takes away hope? It makes our hope God. We are in a predicament and the escape is to pray and trust God and strive to obey. If God is not my hope and escape, then that leaves just me and my will as hope and escape.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-26-2009 at 08:18 AM..
Originally Posted by pneuma file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif (broken link) Bob, scriptures state that sin was in the world BEFORE the law but was not imputed unto man, and I would say sin is an evil.
Quote:
I agree, but I don't see what point you are making.
I am getting to it but trying a different approach, please bear with me.
It is why I asked this question
myQuote: Ok than what do you see as the reason God sent Christ?
Quote:
To save us from our sins. To show us the Father and lead us to being perfect as the Father is perfect. In the absence of evil, Christ could not have shown us the Father by example, nor required us to actually follow that example.
myQuote: Why would you think reason 1 has anything to do with God intending evil?
Quote:
Becuase if 100 people are lepers or in a drought and God save's only 1, either
1) God is powerless to save the other 99
2) God intends the other 99 to be lepers or dying of thirst
God must have had good reason for doing that or allowing that.
Yes He did it’s called man freewill. If people refuse, the leading of the Holy Spirits God leaves them to their own design.
Quote:
So logically speaking how can you say that God could not have had a different good reason from the beginning?
myQuote: There is a difference between the way we see evil Bob, you believe God planned for man to be disobedient so that he could learn the difference between good and evil by entering into sin.
Quote:
I don't claim to know for sure God's good reason. Knowing good from evil is one possible reason among many. It was for Job to trust God even if Job was unable to dissect or fathom the exact reason for what God was doing.
Ya the book of Job is probably the hardest point you make concerning what I am seeing and I have to study it more, but don’t forget Job is a book under shadow/vail and what appears on the surface is not likely what it is really saying, unless of course you believe God can be enticed by Satan to destroy without cause.
myQuote: That God planned man to sin is evil, it would be no different than if I raised up a child to be a murder from the time of its birth, kill, kill, kill would be all that child knew, would you conceder me a kind loving father or would I be an evil father? myQuote: To tell you what I see Bob I need an answer to this question, tis why I asked it to begin with.
Quote:
I agree, that does seem evil. Yet there are tons of things in scripture that God does that seem evil to various degrees. Also, the analogy is far from perfect.
It more than seems evil brother it is evil.
Yes they SEEM evil because Israel of old portrayed God in shadow because the true light was only given by Jesus.
myQuote: Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Quote:
Regarding the highlighted parts: Lamentations 3 says, "It is good for man to bear the yoke of hs youth" The yoke of his youth in context means bearing the wrath of God, the evil God sends for sin. So God sends evil, yet is "thinking no evil". Thinking evil is about heart & purpose.
Many people like the writer of lamentations start out by blaming God for everything that comes into their life. Today they would say things like why, oh why did you do this to me God?
Then they recall that the Lords mercy is new every morning and out the mouth of the most high proceedeth not evil and good.
When they recall that out of the mouth of the most high proccedeth not evil and good they come to realize that it was their enemy that chased them sore like a bird without cause, their enemy that cast stones upon them and not God.
Basically they quit blaming God for all the evil that has happened to them and start to blame who should have been blamed from the beginning, their enemy.
Quote:
2. It takes away hope? It makes our hope God. We are in a predicament and the escape is to pray and trust God and strive to obey. If God is not my hope and escape, then that leaves just me and my will as hope and escape.
But according to your understanding we are in the predicament because God intended us to be in that predicament. Therefore, what hope is there of escape in prayer, in trust and striving to obey if God does not intend us to obey anyway?
All the commandments of God mean nothing if He intends for us to do the exact opposite of what He tells us to do.
Yes He did it’s called man freewill. If people refuse, the leading of the Holy Spirits God leaves them to their own design. Because Man had yet to be disobedient.
But you are saying that the only good reason for God sending evil man's way is in response to free will disobedence. Viewed that way, it's evil for evil. Yet I believe God sends good for the evil of sin. The good God sends is this: "it is good for a man [sinner] to bear the yoke [wrath of God, evil sent from God] of his youth [sin]"
This is a good reason for God sending evil: "the leading of the Holy Spirits God leaves them to their own design"
How do you know it's the only good reason God could possible have? When I read Job, I get a picture of evil being sent upon a man for some reason that is clearly not due to his free will disobedience.
But you are saying that the only good reason for God sending evil man's way is in response to free will disobedence. Viewed that way, it's evil for evil. Yet I believe God sends good for the evil of sin. The good God sends is this: "it is good for a man [sinner] to bear the yoke [wrath of God, evil sent from God] of his youth [sin]"
This is a good reason for God sending evil: "the leading of the Holy Spirits God leaves them to their own design"
How do you know it's the only good reason God could possible have? When I read Job, I get a picture of evil being upon a man for some reason that is clearly not due to his free will disobedience.
Bob your not hearing me, GOD DOES NOT SEND EVIL, nothing in God is evil, therefore evil cannot come from God.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
