Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Where does it say anywhere in that passage that Onesiphorus was dead?
Because Paul speaks of Onesiphorus only in the past tense, wishes present blessings upon his house (family), and mercy for him "in that day". So the from early on, the Church believed that Onesiphorus at the time of Paul's writing, was indeed dead.
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
Before there was Sacred Scripture, there was the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic church as formed by Jesus Christ, the Apostles, and the Early Church Fathers. We are talking about the traditions that Paul talks about in the Bible. Your Bible.
Where is the scripture which says that money can buy salvation? Where in the first 300 years of Christianity is there evidence of this?
The god of money is Mammon ... We find that Mammon stands in direct opposition to God.
Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
What makes anyone think that God desires money or the sacrifice thereof? This was a common theme, one of the many manners of literal extortion, which worked in the Roman Catholic Traditions throughout the centuries.
Quote:
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
It is obvious in the way that this passage is worded that this is not a prayer but a blessing. Paul is not praying for God to have mercy on Onesiphorus because of anything hid did, but he was attesting to the mercy that God will have on him in that day. Paul, listing the various things done by Onesiphorusk, was acknowledging the fruit that were evident in Onesiporus' life which were evidence of his faith. Paul was not asking God to have mercy on him because he did this and this.
We know Gods mercy is a free gift, and that the grace of God and our salvation is once and for all attested to, and appropriated by the blood sacrifice of his only begotten son - and nothing else. So Paul cannot be praying and indeed is not praying but only blessing Onesiphorus and his family. There is a big difference ...
Quote:
Here's an interesting website listing ancient Christian writings on purgatory and prayers for the dead. The first one is from 160 A.D.
Paganism, and Judaism(Phariseeism), and gnosticism, all began working their way into the church during the lives of the apostles. Simon Magus was a good example of this, and i believe him to have been the first true Pope(at least spiritually if not legally) of the Catholic Church, as it was certainly not Peter.
It (prayers for the dead) was not so common as to have been mentioned by any of the earliest church fathers to my knowledge. Christ told us ...
Luke 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
We have no fear of losing our loved ones in that we have the knowledge of the grace of God through Christ. The Spiritually quick are not like the spiritually dead who do not know the life of Christ and so mourn the loss of their loved ones. That is to say, we have hope and faith that we will be with them again at the resurrection. Christ has already won the victory over sin and death and it will be testified in due time. The false doctrines of legalism and death and torture and hate are all passing away along with all the other evils of the world, as are all powers and authorities - especially the religious powers of the earth.
The more we talk about these things the more it is obvious the pagan and Judaized traditions which are the true underpinnings of the Roman Catholic Church.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-01-2009 at 04:22 PM..
. Itis obvious in the way that this passage is worded that this is not a prayer but a blessing.
Not so obvious to the Early Church Fathers. But what would they know. They just walked and were taught by the Apostles and their disciples. Anti-Catholic protestants definitely have a better grasp on what Jesus taught 2000 years after the fact. No question, with all that authority, ya know. Not to mention their universal consistency on all matters of faith and doctrine. Anti-Catholic protestants just got it right, baby.
Oh, could you please direct me to the protestant church that got it right out of the 32,000+ churches that use the Bible as a source of truth. Please tell me. I am so lost.
Not so obvious to the Early Church Fathers. But what would they know. They just walked and were taught by the Apostles and their disciples. Anti-Catholic protestants definitely have a better grasp on what Jesus taught 2000 years after the fact. No question, with all that authority, ya know. Not to mention their universal consistency on all matters of faith and doctrine. Anti-Catholic protestants just got it right, baby.
Oh, could you please direct me to the protestant church that got it right out of the 32,000+ churches that use the Bible as a source of truth. Please tell me. I am so lost.
... Is that all you have to say? You are not even going to provide evidence for your claim, you are just going to say its true?
What about everything else i posted? Do you care to respond to that?
... Is that all you have to say? You are not even going to provide evidence for your claim, you are just going to say its true?
What about everything else i posted? Do you care to respond to that?
I will not get into scripture battles. I just gave you one, told you why Catholics believe what they do, and you dismissed it outright. So what's the point. You don't even say that well, I guess I understand why that might be misconstrued, but here's why I think you're wrong. You just say your wrong because the verse means this. So what's to argue. So ultimately it comes down to 2000 years of Catholic Authority against your opinion. Sorry, you lose.
If you read the writings of the Early Church Fathers and read with an open heart and mind, you might have a change of heart. You have to understand that everything the Catholic Church does during a Mass, it all points to Jesus. Everything. So you really have nothing to fear.
I will not get into scripture battles. I just gave you one, told you why Catholics believe what they do, and you dismissed it outright. So what's the point. You don't even say that well, I guess I understand why that might be misconstrued, but here's why I think you're wrong. You just say your wrong because the verse means this. So what's to argue. So ultimately it comes down to 2000 years of Catholic Authority against your opinion. Sorry, you lose.
If you read the writings of the Early Church Fathers and read with an open heart and mind, you might have a change of heart. You have to understand that everything the Catholic Church does during a Mass, it all points to Jesus. Everything. So you really have nothing to fear.
I would like to ask this of any Catholic that would care to answer.
Does the Catholic Church believe that Mary is a co-redemptrous with Christ? Do Catholics believe that Mary intercedes on the part of anyone? Do Catholics believe Mary mediates between God and man? If they do, why do they in view of 1 Timothy 2:5,6; which says, 'For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all?
What does the Catholic Church mean when they say co-redemptrous? Or is it a Catholic belief at all?
“Catholic Christianity recognizes and venerates the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Mother of God, as the exemplar of what redeemed humanity will one day be: the forerunner, the quintessential Christian and symbol of the Church itself, our Spiritual Mother and Queen of Heaven, who was spared by God’s grace the curse of death and immediately received her glorious resurrected body after her earthly sojourn had come to an end. And that’s why we and others have fulfilled the prophecy that Mary gave concerning herself.
…..from now on, all generations will call me blessed (Luke 1:48b)
And why is she blessed?
For the Mighty One has done great things for me, and Holy is His name. (Luke 1:49)
Mary is always glorifying God the Father and Jesus, never herself, for this is her purpose and calling. All of the Marian doctrines are Christocentric. They were promulgated in the first place so that Jesus Christ would be glorified, not Mary. And this is why Catholics have venerated her above all creatures and why any Christian can indeed “relate to” and “identify with” her, because she glorifies and imitates God and that is what all serious Christians want to do (and are commanded to do) too.”
“This was God’s marvelous plan—to involve a creature and a woman at every step of the way, so as to achieve a certain –“balance”—if I may properly speak in such a way. Eve brought down the human race, acting with Adam; Mary helped to raise it, acting in concert with Jesus Christ, her Son, the second Adam (as Paul describes Him). If Satan could cause the fall of the human race through the frailty of Woman and Man, why is it not plausible that God could in turn bring about the Redemption of the human race in part through the Immaculate Conception, the Second Eve, the Theotokos? To me it makes eminent sense. It is contrary to neither Scripture nor to common sense nor reason.
“There is no necessary reason – a priori—for thinking that God couldn’t or wouldn’t have done such a thing…..Nothing in these concepts is contrary to Scripture or Tradition.”
“God clearly uses human beings as mediators. We pray for each other. Paul speaks of “having saved some” in the process of his ministry. Moses interceded and “atoned” for the Jews and God decided not to destroy them, etc.”
“….it is nothing so unbelievable or extraordinary that God chose to involve Mary in the Redemption of mankind and the distribution of graces. God can do whatever He wants!”
These quotes are taken from the book, More Biblical Evidence for Catholicism by Dave Armstrong.
"That is all that statement about Mary is saying. Mary had a role, a contribution in filling what was lacking in us, the Church. It's a very biblical statement.
Jesus Christ as true God and true man redeems the human family, while Mary as Coredemptrix participates with the Redeemer in his one perfect Sacrifice in a completely subordinate and dependent way. The key word here is "participation" in that which is exclusively true of Jesus Christ. The title "Coredemptrix" never puts Mary on a level of equality with our Lord; rather, it refers to Mary's unique and intimate participation with her divine Son in the work of redemption. "Coredemptrix" is a Latin word; the prefix "co" in the title, "Coredemptrix," derives from the Latin word "***," which means "with," not "equal to." Mary's sufferings are efficacious towards the redemption of man because they are wholly rooted in the redemptive graces of Christ and are perfectly united to His redeeming will. Similarly, as Mediatrix, the Mother of Jesus does not "rival" Christ's mediation but rather participates in the one mediation of Jesus Christ. Imagine water from a reservoir reaching the people through a system of aqueducts or channels. By analogy, Jesus is the infinite "reservoir" of all grace, which is distributed to us through Mary .... as she gave birth to Jesus. Jesus, the one mediator, does not exclude secondary, subordinate mediators.
Catholics do agree wholeheartedly that Jesus is the one and only mediator between man & God. No question ... the bible teaches this ... the Catholic Church teaches this. No subordinate co-deities, no additional redeemers, no additional mediators! Clear enough?"
I would like to ask this of any Catholic that would care to answer.
Does the Catholic Church believe that Mary is a co-redemptrous with Christ? Do Catholics believe that Mary intercedes on the part of anyone? Do Catholics believe Mary mediates between God and man? If they do, why do they in view of 1 Timothy 2:5,6; which says, 'For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all?
What does the Catholic Church mean when they say co-redemptrous? Or is it a Catholic belief at all?
An important paragraph to quell the fears of protestants:
"It is important to note that the prefix "co" in the title Coredemptrix does not mean "equal to" but rather "with", coming from the Latin word "***". The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary's unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man."
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
... Is that all you have to say? You are not even going to provide evidence for your claim, you are just going to say its true? 
