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Heres Pope John Paul kissing the Koran And how can anyone who prays to statues be a saint ??? Luke 11:27-28 "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto Jesus, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."
Jesus could have applauded this woman's statement, he could have instructed her to indeed bless the womb that bore Him. He did not do or say such a thing.
How can one square early Church tradition which doesn't show reverence and devotion to Mary until 400 A.D. with the Scriptures which after the nativity say next to nothing about her which would warrant the idol worship given to her by Roman Catholics.
Mary was born with Adam & Eves fallen nature and needed to be "born again of the spirit" also and Jesus died for Marys sins as well.
Every believer is a saint as of the moment of salvation.
1 Corinithians 1:2 'To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord and Savior Christ, their Lord and ours.'
A saint is simply someone who has been sanctified. To be sanctified means to be set apart. At the moment of faith in Christ the believer is set apart unto God for salvation.
Being a saint has absolutely nothing to do with any merit on the part of the believer. It has nothing to do with being declared a saint by man because of the kind of life you lived. God has made every believer a saint at the moment of salvation. This is the revealed truth of the word of God.
We as believers are saints by the grace of God. Not by our works.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
But you don't have to call me Saint Mike
There you go again, not listening. I, and the Catholic church agree with you, rather you agree with the Catholic church. Until you take the time to learn what we actually believe, please stop acting like you do. I think I'll past the link again, in my vain hope that you might actually read it, and discover that you agree with it, that you believe the same thing. So here you go. Why not for once, give it try, step away from your self induced ignorance.
There you go again, not listening. I, and the Catholic church agree with you, rather you agree with the Catholic church. Until you take the time to learn what we actually believe, please stop acting like you do. I think I'll past the link again, in my vain hope that you might actually read it, and discover that you agree with it, that you believe the same thing. So here you go. Why not for once, give it try, step away from your self induced ignorance.
There you go again, not listening. I, and the Catholic church agree with you, rather you agree with the Catholic church. Until you take the time to learn what we actually believe, please stop acting like you do.
I posted the following at a different thread the other day in response to a question about saints at the secular forum; some of those lurking might find it instructive:
With regard to your statement "A Saint is supposed to be someone who is in heaven," my response to you is as follows:
First, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't determine who is sent to heaven and who is is sent to hell--God does!
The Catholic Church does, however, have the authority to canonize people. A canonized saint is one who has been declared infallibly by the Catholic Church to be in heaven. While it is true that all canonized saints are in heaven, not all people in heaven have been canonized. In other words, one need not be canonized to be in heaven. Ergo, your question "Can their be non-Catholic saints?" is really two questions, not one:
(1) Can a non-Catholic get to heaven?
(2) Can a non-Catholic be canonized?
I am not a theologian nor have I researched either of these areas in any depth, but I will start with saying I have never been taught--nor do I believe-- that "all non-Catholics go to hell." As one Catholic writer explains it:
Quote:
First and foremost, the Catholic Church teaches that salvation only comes from Jesus Christ. What is meant by this is that salvation would not be possible if not for the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus - his mission was to open the gates of heaven in order that men and women might enjoy eternity with him ...Due to Original Sin, man has become separated from God, and Jesus Christ is the only "bridge" that allows one to be reconciled to the Father.
Furthermore, the Catholic Church considers itself the "sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774-775), meaning that the Church, as Christ's Body on earth, is the means through which people come to salvation in Christ. It is the constant teaching of the Catholic Church that "outside the Church there is no salvation." ....
From these teachings, it might appear that only Catholics may go to heaven. However, we must distinguish between the ordinary means of salvation and possible extraordinary means. Throughout her history, the Church has always understood that there can be exceptions to the standard. This does not mean exceptions to the exclusivity of Christ as Savior or the Church as the instrument of his salvation. No, it means exception to the ways in which Christ's salvation through the Church occurs in the life of the individual. We see this most clearly in the Church's teaching on baptism.
Baptism is the means by which one is brought into the Catholic Church, and thus baptism is tied directly to salvation: "baptism is necessary for salvation" (CCC 1257, cf. John 3:5). But the Church has always recognized that there are three types of baptism: (1) regular, sacramental water baptism; (2) baptism by blood, meaning martyrdom for Christ; and (3) baptism of desire, which means that one desires to be baptized but is unable to do so (cf. CCC 1258-1260).
What this means is that there may have been some throughout history and today that have desired, either explicitly or implicitly, to be baptized.....What if someone does not know about Catholicism - or is not properly formed in that knowledge - but sincerely desires to follow God as best he or she knows how? It is possible that this constitutes an implicit desire for baptism, and thus is a means to salvation. "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity" (CCC 1260, emphasis in original).
As the Catechism states, "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." (CCC 1257). Thus although we are bound to follow the commands of Christ to be baptized if we know and understand these commands, God is not bound to damn those who, through no fault of their own, do not know and understand these commands.
Further, see paragraphs 839-848 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, The Church and non-Christians :
Quote:
This affirmation [no salvation outside the Church] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation.
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men" (CCC 847-848).
InsideCatholic.com - Can Non-Catholics Be Saved? (http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemi d=12 - broken link)
Here is a fairly detailed overview of the historical development of the doctrine extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Latin for "outside the Church, no salvation"):
As regards the second question, as I stated, I am not a theologian or by any means an expert in Catholic teaching, but I have found a brief discussion of this at the "Catholic Answers website" -- whilst it appears to be a theological opinion and not a statement of Catholic dogma, it does sound reasonable to me:
Quote:
It is theoretically possible that the Church could canonize a non-Catholic, because canonization is simply an official acknowledgment that a particular person is in heaven. But to date the Church has done so only with its own members. This is because one of the purposes of canonization is to set forth for Catholics a model of Catholic Christian holiness.
On the canonization process in general (often a lengthy one):
Quote:
The Catholic Church canonizes or beatifies only those whose lives have been marked by the exercise of heroic virtue, and only after this has been proved by common repute for sanctity and by conclusive arguments.
This should be enough to get you started. "Catholic Answers" used to run a free apologetics hotline from their office in San Diego where you could phone them up during regular business hours and one of their staff of professional theologians would answer any question you had about Catholic doctrine. I don't know if it's still offered as I cannot seem to find a link for it now. They do however have a forum called "Ask an Apologist":
You know I think this is part of why Christians look like nuts to some people. Is it really so hard to just say "I'm not Catholic, but I'm happy if you're happy." Or even say "I disagreed with John Paul II on XYZ issues while recognizing QRS good qualities, but this ultimately not my affair" in a calm manner. Do you people really need to hector and lecture those because they aren't of your denomination?
Granted I've said negative things of Protestantism, but I think sometimes I was wrong to do so. Other times it's because someone is criticizing all Christianity based on something that's not true of non-Protestant denominations. I certainly don't feel the need to see red every time something nice is said of a Protestant. Sheesh.
You know I think this is part of why Christians look like nuts to some people. Is it really so hard to just say "I'm not Catholic, but I'm happy if you're happy." Or even say "I disagreed with John Paul II on XYZ issues while recognizing QRS good qualities, but this ultimately not my affair" in a calm manner. Do you people really need to hector and lecture those because they aren't of your denomination?
Granted I've said negative things of Protestantism, but I think sometimes I was wrong to do so. Other times it's because someone is criticizing all Christianity based on something that's not true of non-Protestant denominations. I certainly don't feel the need to see red every time something nice is said of a Protestant. Sheesh.
One of the goals of the New Age movement has always been to destroy the monotheistic religions and replace them with a a one world, neo-pagan religion.
A key part of their strategy has always been "divide and conquer" -- in other words, to pit the monothestic faiths against each other in order to destroy each other.
Ergo, it's very easy to discern exactly whose interests are being served when Protestant Christians like Marks and enow and Mike555 come to forums like this and spew distortions about Catholicism.
It's nice isn't it when the NAM can manipulate someone else into doing its dirty work?
One of the goals of the New Age movement has always been to destroy the monotheistic religions and replace them with a a one world, neo-pagan religion.
A key part of their strategy has always been "divide and conquer" -- in other words, to pit the monothestic faiths against each other in order to destroy each other.
Ergo, it's very easy to discern exactly whose interests are being served when Protestant Christians like Marks and enow and Mike555 come to forums like this and spew distortions about Catholicism.
It's nice isn't it when the NAM can manipulate someone else into doing its dirty work?
Any thoughts on caucazhin post...........
Pope John Paul kissing the Koran
Did not say once that all faiths gains enterance into heaven?
The other question I have is,
what is your definition of worship?
Here is Webester's:
worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, respect, from weorth worthy, worth
a person of importance
reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence
a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
I've been involved in interfaith dialogue on the internet for many years.
I no longer waste my time with individuals like caucazhin whose opening serves use Catholic-baiting rhetoric like this:
How can one square early Church tradition which doesn't show reverence and devotion to Mary until 400 A.D. with the Scriptures which after the nativity say next to nothing about her which would warrant the idol worship given to her by Roman Catholics. Mary was born with Adam & Eves fallen nature and needed to be "born again of the spirit" also and Jesus died for Marys sins as well.
Individuals who behave this way are not to be taken seriously.
Occasionally I will take the time to correct their distortions, but today is not one of those days.
Here is a good model for a Protestant who argues intelligently and respectfully and without compromise for his Protestant beliefs. Unlike cauchazin, I think he is a fantastic role model for all Protestants to follow:
I've been involved in interfaith dialogue on the internet for many years.
I no longer waste my time with individuals like caucazhin whose opening serves use Catholic-baiting rhetoric like this:
How can one square early Church tradition which doesn't show reverence and devotion to Mary until 400 A.D. with the Scriptures which after the nativity say next to nothing about her which would warrant the idol worship given to her by Roman Catholics. Mary was born with Adam & Eves fallen nature and needed to be "born again of the spirit" also and Jesus died for Marys sins as well.
Individuals who behave this way are not to be taken seriously.
Occasionally I will take the time to correct their distortions, but today is not one of those days.
Here is a good model for a Protestant who argues intelligently and respectfully and without compromise for his Protestant beliefs. Unlike cauchazin, I think he is a fantastic role model for all Protestants to follow:
Fair enough. I know that I'm finding myself not responding to LDS people who do the same thing....using Christian-baiting rhetoric.
Still with that being said, would like to know what your definition is "to worship".
Only the triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is to be worshipped. I am not a theologian, but this is what I have always understood the Catholic Church to teach. We do honor and revere Mary as the Mother of Our Saviour and as the Mother of the Catholic Church, but no way in h*ck do we "worship" her.
Of the definitions you have supplied, the ones that fit my definition of "worship" as I have always understood the word in a religious context are highlighted in blue. Mary, since she is human and not divine, fits within neither of these two:
worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, respect, from weorth worthy, worth
a person of importance
reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
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