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among the apocryphal, or better to say apocalyptic writings, the book of Enoch seems the only one of significant relevance, some seem to consider it as holy scripture, so I have a question:
if the Book of Enoch were genuine, then it must have been written by Enoch himself, then it were one of the most ancient books of the bible, older then the book Exodus e.g. . Enoch were then the most emminent prophet that ever lived prior to Christ. We find however nowhere such testimony in the bible....
The OT and NT books are filled with the doctrines laid out foundationally in 1 Enoch, and never relaid in the OT or NT, but taken as truth, from Enoch's revelations.
Enoch was written for all the world, not just for the Jews, but He saw the Jews in His dream visions and gave a total history of the world from the beginning to the end in His books.
The Book of Enoch is Scripture in the Ethiopian Orthodox and Coptic Churches, and always has been, from the beginning of the NT Church there, among the converted to Christ Jews.
Jesus called Enoch's writings "Scripture" when He rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing what it said about the angels in heaven not marrying, and that those who inherit the kingdom of God will be equal with/as the angels in heaven. Enoch told all about that.
Jesus spoke from 1 Enoch's writing many times, esp in his reference to Himself as the "Son of Man in heaven", who was seen there, in heaven, hidden in God and who was God, and who was to come, and seen there only by Enoch as the Son of Man in heaven hidden in "God the Great Glory", whose name was "secret" until it was "revealed to the elect". -That name is revealed to Jacob. It is "Israel", as Isaiah 49 states, also.
he is accused of having taught that the stars are living celestial beings .....
thats because often times the book of Enoch refers to fallen angels & angels in generals as stars.The bible does this also in many places.
" and I saw the stars fall from heaven "
heres an interesting little parallel study page on verses in Enoch and verses from the bible......... http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/BibleStudy_BookofEnoch.htm
The Book of Enoch is Scripture in the Ethiopian Orthodox and Coptic Churches, and always has been, from the beginning of the NT Church there, among the converted to Christ Jews.
interestingly, as far as I know the Ethiopian church does consider the revelation of John not as canonic - which is authority is the Ethopian church?
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thats because often times the book of Enoch refers to fallen angels & angels in generals as stars.The bible does this also in many places.
" and I saw the stars fall from heaven "
in the book of Enoch literal stars seem to be punished for they didn't shine in their proper season:
The stars which roll over fire are those which transgressed the commandment of God before their time arrived; for they came not in their proper season. Therefore was He offended with them, and bound them, until the period of the consummation of their crimes in the secret year. (Enoch 18:16 -verses differ in different translations)
Interestingly, their punishment is limited, as in other sections also, the book of Enoch appears rather equivocal wether sinners shall be punished everlastingly or for a finite period or be annihilated. The book of Enoch does not by neccessity contradict universalism, at least the parts availalable in Greek I've examined, keep in mind, translations are very often inaccurate, especially the words translated "forever", "eternal" etc.
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Jesus called Enoch's writings "Scripture" when He rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing what it said about the angels in heaven not marrying, and that those who inherit the kingdom of God will be equal with/as the angels in heaven.
the angels in the book of Enoch took wives, Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for not believing in the ressurection and trying to ridicule it by their question, Jesus then said that they will be like angels who do not marry (which I understand that angels are asexual), yet the angels in the book Enoch took wifes and were therefore not asexual. So thereby Jesus' words rather contradict the book of Enoch then support it.
B. The holy books of the New Testament
1. Matthew
2. Mark
3. Luke
4. John
5. The Acts
6. Romans
7. I Corinthians
8. II Corinthians
9. Galatians
10. Ephesians
11. Philippians
12. Colossians
13. I Thessalonians
14. II Thessalonians
15. I Timothy
16. II Timothy
17. Titus
18. Philemon
19. Hebrews
20. I Peter
21. II Peter
22. I John
23. II John
24. III John
25. James
26. Jude
27. Revelation
28. Sirate Tsion (the book of order)
29. Tizaz (the book of Herald)
30. Gitsew
31. Abtilis
32. The I book of Dominos
33. The II book of Dominos
34. The book of Clement
35. Didascalia
...
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Originally Posted by svenM
the angels in the book of Enoch took wives, Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for not believing in the ressurection and trying to ridicule it by their question, Jesus then said that they will be like angels who do not marry (which I understand that angels are asexual), yet the angels in the book Enoch took wifes and were therefore not asexual. So thereby Jesus' words rather contradict the book of Enoch then support it.
Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing about the power of God for resurrection in the Scriptures, which would be all Scriptures that they had access to.
They had access to 1 Enoch, besides the Law and the prophets, and Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing the Scripture/Writing [sacred] which told exactly what the state of the resurrected/and translated saints in heaven would be like.
1, they will be as the angels in heaven who do not marry and are not given in marriage.
2 they will be as/equal to/like the angels in heaven who do not marry and are not given in marriage.
The revelation of Enoch's writinng is that the angels in heaven do not marry, were not made to marry, and that the redeemed sons of Adam will be like them.
And as your argument, the angels who took daughters of Adam were damned to never enter into heaven again, because they did not keep their "first estate". They can appear as men, and the remained in that body instead of returning to their heavenly "estate" so as to marry daughters of Adam.
And as to universalism, it is false to state that Enoch taught any such thing. He is the one who revealed the foundational doctrine of the lake of fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, and then revealed the Word of God the Great Glory, that the doom of the demons [disembodied nephillim] would be to be cast there for eternal torment, after roaming earth to tempt, torment, and deceive the race of Adam until the Son of Man comes to have them all bundled up and cast into the lake of fire.
Also: Enoch revealed totally that the doom of all unregenerate human beings [who refuse to seek the Light and live the elect life of the redeemed], was the second death of the blackness of darkness [wawy for the LIGHT, in the lake of fire forever and forever; and there they will remain as eternal, undying "worms", with no hope for translation/metamorphosis to the state of being a son of God, and glorified.
And as to the book of Job: Job read Enoch and believed in the Son of Man as his own Redeemer, who would stand on the earth in the last days. Job 19:25, and that he would see him after his body was dead, with his own eyes [resurrected].
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 01-11-2010 at 11:48 AM..
it is the Syriac Orthodox Church that does not accept the revelation of John, my fault.
I haven't read the book of Enoch completely yet, but I understand it as more likely teaching annihilation, medieval Jewish scholars seem to have done so as well, e.g. Maimonides; beside of this it seems to contain many ridicilous notions, e.g. it's cosmology.
Do you know that the book of Enoch is preserved completely, only in an ancient Ethiopic language, which possibly not even had a word for "eternity"?
So how can the book of Enoch teach eternal damnation, when the language in which it is presevered (Ge'ez) might have no word for "eternal"?
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And as to the book of Job: Job read Enoch and believed in the Son of Man as his own Redeemer, who would stand on the earth in the last days. Job 19:25, and that he would see him after his body was dead, with his own eyes [resurrected].
but he did not believe in that kind of netherworld described in the book of Enoch.
it is the Syriac Orthodox Church that does not accept the revelation of John, my fault.
I haven't read the book of Enoch completely yet, but I understand it as more likely teaching annihilation, ...
Do you know that the book of Enoch is preserved completely, only in an ancient Ethiopic language, which probably not even had a word for "eternity"?
1 Enoch is not completely preserved even in the Ethiopic Ge'ez language, and one of those included in it is a fragment, only, of Noah's writing [and Noah hated writing, as he lamented about it in his writing].
Enoch wrote 365 books, he said, and the Ethiopian includes only 5 of them. The book of the Giants of the DSS is also written by Enoch, and that makes 6 books. We're missing lots of them, but a book is not necessarily long/big and may be like what is called "a little book" in Revelation, which John eats.
As to universalism, it is not true, and Enoch- completely- is the foundational revelation for all Bible doctrine on:
the fallen angels/Watchers marrying daughters of Adam
the disembodied offspring of the fallen angels as demons roaming the earth until the return of the LORD to the earth to cast them into the lake of fire
the Lake of Fire;
Sheol beneath earth as the holding place;
the calendar God created, its cycles, and the heavenly body's orbits
the Son of Man in heaven who is God, with God,
and who was hidden until His revealing
His death
His resurrection and His being the One who resurrects the dead;
the judgment of men and angels by the Son of Man in heaven;
the great tribulation which is to come
the rapture/translation to bodies of glory of the saints before the tribulation
the Millennial reign of Peace/Sabbath for this present creation;
the throne of glory for the Son of Man in Mount Eden, in the City of God
The City of God in heaven
The chief/archangels and the seven chiefs of those chiefs.
The angelic orders of Cherubim, Seraphim, Ophannim, and the elders [the Watchers who intercede for men] and the beasts about the throne
the throne of God in heaven
the satans as created evil spirits in heaven, with a chief of them, who tempt angels and men
the final war between satan, with fallen angels, nephillim and wicked men on his side, and the Son of Man, His Holy Spirit, with elect angels and righteous men on His side
the regeneration of the heavens and the earth, and the blackness of darkness forever in the lake of fire, for all unregenerate rebel angels and men -and of course, of the nepillim
and the eternal state of the damned and the elect.
1 Enoch is not completely preserved even in the Ethiopic Ge'ez language, and one of those included in it is a fragment, only, of Noah's writing [and Noah hated writing, as he lamented about it in his writing].
Enoch wrote 365 books, he said, and the Ethiopian includes only 5 of them. The book of the Giants of the DSS is also written by Enoch, and that makes 6 books. We're missing lots of them, but a book is not necessarily long/big and may be like what is called "a little book" in Revelation, which John eats.
As to universalism, it is not true, and Enoch- completely- is the foundational revelation for all Bible doctrine on:
the fallen angels/Watchers marrying daughters of Adam
the disembodied offspring of the fallen angels as demons roaming the earth until the return of the LORD to the earth to cast them into the lake of fire
the Lake of Fire;
Sheol beneath earth as the holding place;
the calendar God created, its cycles, and the heavenly body's orbits
the Son of Man in heaven who is God, with God,
and who was hidden until His revealing
His death
His resurrection and His being the One who resurrects the dead;
the judgment of men and angels by the Son of Man in heaven;
the great tribulation which is to come
the rapture/translation to bodies of glory of the saints before the tribulation
the Millennial reign of Peace/Sabbath for this present creation;
the throne of glory for the Son of Man in Mount Eden, in the City of God
The City of God in heaven
The chief/archangels and the seven chiefs of those chiefs.
The angelic orders of Cherubim, Seraphim, Ophannim, and the elders [the Watchers who intercede for men] and the beasts about the throne
the throne of God in heaven
the satans as created evil spirits in heaven, with a chief of them, who tempt angels and men
the final war between satan, with fallen angels, nephillim and wicked men on his side, and the Son of Man, His Holy Spirit, with elect angels and righteous men on His side
the regeneration of the heavens and the earth, and the blackness of darkness forever in the lake of fire, for all unregenerate rebel angels and men -and of course, of the nepillim
and the eternal state of the damned and the elect.
So the Watchers are good.
I enjoyed your post as always.
You sure cover a lot of ground. Speaking of ground I admire how you have stood your ground( Nephlim thread) in the name of Yeshua
May God continue to bless and keep you.
Last edited by FreeThinkerInTex; 01-11-2010 at 03:40 PM..
So the Watchers are good.
I enjoyed your post as always.
You sure cover a lot of ground. Speaking of ground I admire how you have stood your ground( Nephlim thread) in the name of Yeshua, may God continue to bless and keep you.
Thank you.
Yes, the watchers are the holy guardian angels/shepherds who are set over men to watch, and to judge them. They are also called the Hebrew word for a judge, "a Dan".
They are called chief/archangels, and there are seven of them who are the "chiefs of the chiefs" and who stand before God the Great Glory, in heaven. Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Penuel, Uriel, Remuel and Saraqiel.
In Enoch 20, seven are named as chiefs, and the names of the 20 leaders who caused the fall of those 190 more who were under them are also named in Enoch, and also in the fragment of Noah; but there are slight variations in name spellings, just like in the Bible when two authors name the same person and use different spellings. Also, in Noah's fragment, one got named, accidentally, twice, and one got dropped. But they are the same persons who were Watchers/judges guards.
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[Chapter 20]
1,2 And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is 3 over the world and over Tartarus. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4,5 Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries. Michael, one 6 of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos. Saraqael, 7 one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. Gabriel, one of the holy 8 angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
The Watchers dwell in the City of God in the heavenly realms [Mount Zion/Mount Eden] and intercede for the sons of Adam from there. Enoch went to live with them in that city.
In Daniel 4, Holy Watchers judged Nebuchadnezzer and made Nebuchadnezzer insane for seven years, so that he would learn to give glory to God.
Dan 4:13-17
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven; He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches: Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and [let] his portion [be] with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him. This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
Jer 4:16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, [that] watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. Jer 4:17As keepers/shamar of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.
Shamar -
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Enoch sees the City of God and the angels interceding for men and longs to go dwell there:
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Enoch 39:
4 And there I saw another vision, the dwelling-places of the holy,
And the resting-places of the righteous.
5 Here mine eyes saw their dwellings with His righteous angels,
And their resting-places with the holy.
And they petitioned and interceded and prayed for the children of men,
And righteousness flowed before them as water,
And mercy like dew upon the earth:
Thus it is amongst them for ever and ever.
6a And in that place mine eyes saw the Elect One of righteousness and of faith,
7a And I saw his dwelling-place under the wings of the Lord of Spirits.
6b And righteousness shall prevail in his days,
And the righteous and elect shall be without number before Him for ever and ever.
7b And all the righteous and elect before Him shall be strong as fiery lights,
And their mouth shall be full of blessing,
And their lips extol the name of the Lord of Spirits,
And righteousness before Him shall never fail,
[And uprightness shall never fail before Him.]
8 There I wished to dwell,
And my spirit longed for that dwelling-place:
and in Enoch's book, he says:
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[Chapter 12]
1 Before these things Enoch was hidden, and no one of the children of men knew where he was 2 hidden, and where he abode, and what had become of him. And his activities had to do with the Watchers, and his days were with the holy ones. 3 And I Enoch was blessing the Lord of majesty and the King of the ages, and lo! the Watchers 4 called me -Enoch the scribe- and said to me: 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves 5 wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness 6 of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their children, The murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over the destruction of their children shall they lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not attain."'
Two hundred of them fell, becoming subject to Satan, as Enoch reports, before the flood.
The Lexicon entry from blueletterbible.org was supposed to be on the word Shamar, used in Jeremiah 4 about the Watchers coming from a "far country" -the City of God in heaven.
Jer 4:16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, [that] watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. Jer 4:17As keepers/shamar of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.
1 Enoch is not completely preserved even in the Ethiopic Ge'ez language, and one of those included in it is a fragment, only, of Noah's writing [and Noah hated writing, as he lamented about it in his writing].
Enoch wrote 365 books, he said, and the Ethiopian includes only 5 of them. The book of the Giants of the DSS is also written by Enoch, and that makes 6 books. We're missing lots of them, but a book is not necessarily long/big and may be like what is called "a little book" in Revelation, which John eats.
sorry, for me it seems you build your doctrine on books that do not even exist, under this circumstances argueing with you appears as kind as tilting at windmills, I'm not Don Quixote
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