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1 Tim. 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
Does this verse prove that God will save all people?
No, it simply states that God "will have all men to be saved."
The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means "will" - 1 Cor. 7:36, or "desire" - Mark 9:35; Phil. 4:16. God desires that all people be saved. But, not all people will be saved.
But then, is this stating that God's will is not carried out?
Yes and no.
God wants that people not sin. Do they sin?
Yes.
Is God's will accomplished in this?
No.
Is God in control?
Yes, yet His will that they not sin, is not carried out.
They will be judged for their sins, if not justified by faith in Christ, and fall under the condemnation of God. Yet God does not want them to perish as it says in Ezekiel 33:11, "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live."
Will they perish?
Yes, because God punishes the sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" - John 3:36.
The partition that was raised, was leveled by Christ, and Paul brought that very message to the Gentiles, allowing "all" men to come to the knowledge epignōsis of the truth. The precise and correct knowledge was then made available to the Gentile world, so that they too, might become saved.
The Death of the firstborn in Egypt is a historical example of a spiritual Truth...
Exactly. I've noticed the same thing. You'll see plenty of links to articles written by others, but very few attempts to delve into a biblical text verse by verse to grasp the whole context. Consulting what others have said on a topic is not wrong per se, but it is very telling when people defer to those individuals and avoid expounding on the relevant biblical text verse by verse.
I studied John Calvin's writtings for a few years and what that did for me was to learn deductive reasoning and logic instead of overspiritualizing everything...and now i don't even bother reading other's works...the scripture stands for itself in my eyes...i do not need any outside references to see what the Truth is...
I studied John Calvin's writtings for a few years and what that did for me was to learn deductive reasoning and logic instead of overspiritualizing everything...and now i don't even bother reading other's works...the scripture stands for itself in my eyes...i do not need any outside references to see what the Truth is...
Wouldn't you say it was somehwere in between? Universalist in here say, we must see the spirit in the words which makes absolutely no sense, should I see it in their words as well?
Wouldn't you say it was somehwere in between? Universalist in here say, we must see the spirit in the words which makes absolutely no sense, should I see it in their words as well?
Can you be more specific with that accusation? Which universalist and what was the exact post itself?
I don't even know what that is supposed to mean ...
I studied John Calvin's writtings for a few years and what that did for me was to learn deductive reasoning and logic instead of overspiritualizing everything...and now i don't even bother reading other's works...the scripture stands for itself in my eyes...i do not need any outside references to see what the Truth is...
Quite frankly, IMO, John Calvin did not truly grasp the Gospel. I don't think he truly believed that God justifies the ungodly on the merits of Christ alone. Calvin understood the reckoning of righteousness through the believers union with Christ, but he did not truly come to terms with the "declaration of righteousness" (justification) proclaimed by God at the cross. When you get justification wrong, the Gospel is wrong. When the Gospel is wrong, it becomes another gospel. But this is only my opinion concerning Calvin. Most of you coming from a reformed persuasion will differ with me on this, and I know it.
Here is a quote from Calvin on Romans 4:5 to make my point:
..."He indeed clearly shews that faith brings us righteousness, not because it is a meritorious act, but because it obtains for us the favor of God"...
The scriptures proclaim otherwise. The scriptures teach:
Heb 9:12 neither through blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, did enter in once into the holy places, age-during redemption having obtained;
Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.
Christ obtained and reconciled us to God through His blood. It was not our faith that did so. Faith brings the knowledge of our redemption to us.
On the other hand, IMO, Martin Luther believed that God justifies the ungodly by Christ alone. When Luther spoke of faith, it was not faith per se that justified Luther, but rather his believing that Christ alone justified him before God. That's what Luther defined as faith. Through that believing (faith) came the knowledge of his justification before God and the righteousness of God reckoned to him. Luther believed the Gospel. He believed the promises of God. He had the faith of Jesus. We have Luther to thank for his protesting against Rome and planting the seeds of the protestant reformation. This IMO was the decisive moment of the Church returning from Rome to Christ. It was a great spiritual awakening of the Church brought about by the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 02-12-2010 at 12:44 PM..
Reason: typo
Sure it does. Do a Greek lexicon search of the word ἐξομολογέω and compare all of it's occurrences and their contexts. It is only used for confessions performed willingly: I'll help find each occurrence for you here:
The word confess in Greek is homologeo. The Greek word logeo means "to speak." The word logic comes from it and means "a discussion of principles." The other part of homologeo is the prefix homo. When we say something is homogeneous, we mean it is the same. So homologeo means, "to speak the same." Confessing your sin is not begging for forgiveness; it is saying the same thing about your sin that God says--that it is sin and is your fault. Confession is an agreement with God that you have sinned.
When I confess my sin, I am not saying, "God, please forgive me." When you became a Christian, how much of your sin did God forgive? The Bible says, "...your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake" (1 Jn. 2:12). All of your sin is forgiven. Confession is not a matter of forgiveness; it is a matter of agreeing with God that you are a sinner and are willing to deal with sin. Jesus has already paid the penalty for all of my sin, and it doesn't have to be paid again. Ephesians 4:32 says, "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake, hath forgiven you." You are already forgiven; confession is just agreeing with God that you are at fault. - *The Problem of My Life: Sin* --* John MacArthur
I've always been troubled (as in curious) by those who proclaim the gospel of damnation and the doctrine of absolute reprobation (from a supralapsarian point of view). For those that espouse these doctrines, were you:
1. Brought to this "enlightenment" while studying the scriptures in the presence of the Holy Spirit? or;
2. Were you taught these at Church or seminary school, or;
3. Were you taught these doctrines from a book other than the Bible itself?
My thinking is that there have been only a handful of minds (going as far back as Cain) that have actually had the ability to express these beliefs into words and to develop their doctrines for others to partake of and run with (pass the torch if you will).
It would seem not all would have the ability to develop these doctrines on their own, but I'm not sure, perhaps I'm wrong.
From Scripture...And taking it for what it says...
No it's not. It's talking about the ungodly, the impious. The God haters, if you will:
Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:
Here is how Paul describes believers:
Rom 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!
Yes, it is...you are a fool on a fools errand...it is talking about believers who, even though not working, are reckoned righteous because of their Faith...Even an Idiot can see that...You just go ahead and believe as you wish to believe because it makes you feel good...your condemnation will be well earned...
1Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
I don't agree with you comprehension. What did god do in order to make known the riches of his glory on his vessels of mercy? Yes, He long suffered the vessels of wrath. Now, why is God willing to show his wrath? Is it to make known his glory? NO! He is willing to shew his wrath to make his power known. That is why he hardened pharaohs heart, so that he could make his power known. But in order to shew his glory he is patient with the vessels of wrath ... The question is to what end is his patience? God is patient with the vessels of wrath in the same way a parent is patient with a rebellious child, they discipline their child not simply to make them suffer, but to teach them the right way. As it is written ...
Isa 26:9
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
And what is the outcome of Gods wrath? What is the outcome of Gods wrath and judgments every time he judged Israel throughout the bible? Their ultimate repentance and healing ...
Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Isa 57:16-18
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
Let me ask you this ... Why did Jesus Ask God to forgive the people who had him put to death if he already knew that God was going to torture them forever?
Why do you choose to pick a definition of the word that doesn't even exist? Why do you choose to believe that most of the people confessing are doing so unwillingly because god is forcing them to say uncle before he throws them into the everlasting torture pit, when the word is never used in that context anywhere in the bible? ...
Ill tell you why i think that the definition of exomologeō which is the actual implication of the word is willing and joyous confession that Christ is lord in celebration of Gods will ...
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.
Psa 67:4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
Psa 68:32 Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:
Psa 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
I am only anwering your posts, and you have come into my circle of influence by debating the doctrine of UR itself. I am not simply focusing on you, i have your belief in ET in my sights and am opening fire, not on you but on what you are professing to be the truth.
What good reason have you to believe God will torture most of creation for ever other than the traditional indoctrination you have been programmed with? Does the idea of eternal torture make you feel like you salvation is more valuable? Does the idea of most of creation being tortured make you feel like God is more glorious? Do you want most of creation ot be eternally damned?
So you believe that desiring and believing that all people will be saved comes from a hard heart? Then God has a hard heart, because he will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth(1Ti 2:4). And Paul had a hard heart as well because he proclaimed God was the savior of all people not only of believers(1Ti 4:10) ... And John must have been hard harted as well for he proclaim that Christ died for the sin, and not only for us that believe, but for the whole world(1Jo 2:2).
and i marvel at how casually so many Christians can claim that God will torture most of his creation. Or how most Christians believe that sin and the works of the devil will have a greater victory over creation that the blood of Christ and his work on the cross.
I also marvel at how you chose not to even acknowledgment what i said here ...
If sin will cause even one person to be lost for ever, then sin abounds more than Grace ... Yet Paul says clearly that Grace will not only abound where ever sin did abound, but that grace will MUCH MORE ABOUND where ever sin did abound. But you do not believe this ... And neither do most Christians ...
Selah ...
You are a Gnostic...and a Heretic...your condemnation will be well deserved...
Wouldn't you say it was somehwere in between? Universalist in here say, we must see the spirit in the words which makes absolutely no sense, should I see it in their words as well?
Just stay in the Word and reject any outside influences and one day you will be able to see the heresies right off without even trying...it is said the way an FBI agent spots a conterfeit is not by studying all the conterfeits, but by studying the real currency so acutely and soundly that when they do come accross a conterfeit they spot it right away...
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