1 Timothy 4:10 ''...Who is the Savior of All men, Especially of Believers.'' It's not what the unversalists think it is. (Holy Spirit, Jesus)
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Exactly ... Just as Christ confessed to God in veneration and honor glorifying his name ... So will all people one day confess him as lord in the same manner.
Yet the eternal death and torture believers would use these words and twist them to say God will force people against their will to bow and say uncle, and then throw them into the torture pit for ever.
As if God would somehow be glorified by such a thing. It goes to show the mentality of such people who proclaim this to be the truth.
God is glorified by both his judgment on the wicked as well as the glorification of the saved:
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. (Romans 9)
A note about v. 23, boldfaced above: It says, "And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy,..." What was it that he did to bring this about? It's described in the previous verse: He "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction."
Even the wicked can glorify God.
What you are doing, sadly, is claiming the falsehood of a doctrine based on your own system of thought. You personally believe that eternal punishment would not glorify God, and so you reject the doctrine of eternal punishment on that basis. For you, it is personal system of theology first, then the Word of God. It should be the other way around. Your system of theology should be derived from Scripture and judged by Scripture. That is why all such rhetoric used by UR adherents just doesn't work. It's just another way of saying, "This is how I think God must be, so it must be so."
No doubt you'll say that you do, indeed, derive your system of theology from Scripture. But what I've seen on this board is a lot of proof-texting, stringing together verses taken out of their context, thus creating the appearance that the Bible says this or that but lacking thoroughness and depth. The references to Romans 5 are a perfect example of this. Why does Paul say in Rom. 5:18,
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
yet in the very next verse he doesn't say "all" any more but uses the phrase "the many":
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
I'm not taking one side or another when I ask this. I am just pointing it out to show that the passage is not as clear-cut as to say, "Look, verse 18 says "all," so it must mean "all." Case closed." Neither side of this debate can take just one verse and make it oppose the other. That accomplishes nothing, since the other side can simply do the reverse. Then all you end up with is an incessant back-and-forth series;
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
To answer the question requires a thorough, verse-by-verse examination of the passage, tracing Paul's line of reasoning and thought from the beginning of the chapter all the way through to the end.
That goes for 1 Corinthians 3 and other passages that have been commonly brought up in this discussion.
Exactly ... Just as Christ confessed to God in veneration and honor glorifying his name ... So will all people one day confess him as lord in the same manner.
Yet the eternal death and torture believers would use these words and twist them to say God will force people against their will to bow and say uncle, and then throw them into the torture pit for ever.
As if God would somehow be glorified by such a thing. It goes to show the mentality of such people who proclaim this to be the truth.
There is a very good reason why the Holy Spirit chose to use the word ἐξομολογέω in the context of this passage:
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answering said, `I do confess (ἐξομολογέω) to Thee, Father, Lord of the heavens and of the earth, that thou didst hide these things from wise and understanding ones, and didst reveal them to babes.
Those that deny the glorious truth of the Gospel and the great salvation of our God are the self professed wise and righteous ones that will one day stand before Christ and confess it to be so.
Those that believe that God is gracious to His enemies and sent His Son to die for them (the impious) are the babes with child like faith that believe and confess now what God has done. Praise God my friend!
A note about v. 23, boldfaced above: It says, "And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy,..." What was it that he did to bring this about? It's described in the previous verse: He "endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction."
The text you allude to in Romans 9:22 says:
Rom 9:22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
"And if"...... εἰ is conditional. If. As such, it expresses a hypothetical condition.
The word "if" is used to denote what God could do if He was willing (same will as used in 1 Tim 2:4). Yes, if God so willed to set His creation on fire, He most assuredly could do so and no one denies this. But the truth of the matter is that God has declared otherwise. God has declared that it is not His will to show wrath upon His creation. But rather it is His will to save His creation. Here God does not use the word "if". It is not a hypothetical condition, but a sure thing. It will happen:
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
It is God's will to proclaim the captives free and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord. This is the reason Jesus was sent. To set the captives free. Not to set them on fire:
Luk 4:18 `The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because He did anoint me; To proclaim good news to the poor, Sent me to heal the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives deliverance, And to blind receiving of sight, To send away the bruised with deliverance,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.'
Rom 9:22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
"And if"...... εἰ is conditional. If. As such, it expresses a hypothetical condition.
The word "if" is used to denote what God could do if He was willing (same will as used in 1 Tim 2:4). Yes, if God so willed to set His creation on fire, He most assuredly could do so and no one denies this. But the truth of the matter is that God has declared otherwise. God has declared that it is not His will to show wrath upon His creation.
You have to ignore the whole context of this passage to come up with that conclusion.
First of all, please note that the text says, "What if?" Paul is asking a rhetorical question, the answer to which is understood. This is not a conditional statement. It is a question. It follows right on the heels of saying, "Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" The answer is yes. He then follows it with the question you referred to.
Secondly, this entire passage is about the distinction between those whom God hardens and those whom he does not harden, between those whom he has mercy on and those he does not have mercy on (v. 18), between those whom God chooses and those whom he does not choose (v. 11). Thus, your view that God will have mercy on all is not only wrong, it is diametrically opposed to this passage.
Thirdly, note v. 23: "And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,..."
There is no conditional statement there. God has, in fact, done this.
Fourthly, it's clear that Paul is not addressing a hypothetical situation because in v. 24 he mentions a fact, not something that might happen: "even us,whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."
Context, my friend, context. As long as you refuse to consult it, you will continue to misinterpret the text.
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1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
I've already addressed this verse. You didn't respond directly to it. Your view of God's will fails to take into consideration the fact that God allows his will to be broken by men at times. It is not God's will that men break his laws and commit sin; nevertheless he allows it to happen.
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This thread is becoming very depraved.
Indeed it is--with every verse that is wrenched from its context.
Indeed. This universalism aka 'one world religion' which promises every sinner, Muslim, Buddhist and atheist an automatic salvation is another masterpiece of Satan. All we can do is pray that it will be exposed as a false religion before too many are deceived and end up in hell because of it. Satan will want nothing more than deceive people into thinking they do not need Christ to be saved, because they are automatically saved.
Circle the wagons brothers and sisters, Christianity is under attack.
Yes, that is what it is doing...convincing people that they do not need Christ for Salvation...And this is what the scriptures say that there will be those that will even deny the very Savior that bought them...Very stute observation...One World Religion...Univesialism...good connection...
Scripture must be read in context, not just verses pulled out, as even I had been guilty of doing . . . . . there is a consistent, connective theme regarding salvation . . . and all the fence posts/verses must be lined up.
And this interpretation shows why universalism is another gospel. It holds out another way to be purified of sin other than through the blood of Christ.
Yes, that is what it is doing...convincing people that they do not need Christ for Salvation...And this is what the scriptures say that there will be those that will even deny the very Savior that bought them...Very stute observation...One World Religion...Univesialism...good connection...
Insightful
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