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And remember this is the Christianity Subforum which you still insist on attacking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69
I clearly said that this is a Christian subforum and I believe Christians should have a voice in discussing their own faith.
They do. Whether a Christian agrees with another Christian or not, Christians "have a voice in discussing their own faith" on this forum.
As does any member who respectfully adheres to the Terms of Service and wishes to post on this subforum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69
both sides need to show a degree of respect
No argument here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69
...but if someone comes into the thread and wants to attack with sensless questions and unfounded accusations then there is no discussion just oneupmanship which proves no one right.
-No one has to engage in "one-up-manship" on any forum, on any thread, if they choose not to.
If they wish to do so, then that's another matter.
(The "Report Post" function exists for a reason.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69
Twisting what I have said before or what I have said here exhibits a hatred I just cannot understand and that is exactly what I am seeking to understand. Where does this kind of hatred come from?
You really want to know where the "hatred" comes from?
--In June's opinion, it comes from individual egos. It's self-generated in the best interests of either "being right" or wishing to push one's own agenda. June is not, specifically, saying this to you, Robin. It's a "collective posting" type affair.
You all complain that the Christianity subforum "isn't Christian." Well, it seems to June that whether it is, or whether or not it isn't, is completely, soley, utterly dependent upon those who post here. --You want less contention? Less arguing? Less attacking? Less "hatred?" --Believe June when she tells you that it is within each and every member's ability --andheart--to bring that about. Seriously!
As an alleged "outsider" who is not a Christian, it's interesting to note that there is more contention and arguing on this forum than anywhere else. June, personally, is used to it; she's been on here long enough. However, what is intriguing is the fact that everyone complains as regards who is, who isn't (a Christian or not) all the while that they defend their faith in a way that doesn't bespeak the true meaning, message of Christianity.
You're all far more invested in the "I-am-right" dynamic than you are in the true underpinnings of Christianity at times. June can absolutely, positively understand, respect, and endorse any member defending their own denominational understanding of faith. She truly, truly, has absolutely no problem with that, and it's a "thing of beauty" when it actually happens, on rare occasion, without discourse or contention. --But somehow, the "denominational warfare" that ensues on here each and every minute of each and every day somehow does not bespeak what "Christians" are called to do.
First off, you alienate one another. Battle lines are drawn. --That hardly bespeaks (to this individual's mind) what the true meaning of "the body of Christ" is supposed to mean, and represent. -Each side, each denomination feels the need to "be right." That creates the discord, and disunity. Call me crazy, but that leads to: Secondly, the fact that any nonbeliever who potentially comes here finds that their atheism is simply reinforced. It's a sad fact and reality for many over the past couple of years, and one that has been addressed/posted about time and again. As well, those who are seekers and those who you would most hope to reach ("the lost") feel likewise.
In short: The choice of how each and every Christian on this forum chooses to depict themselves and their understanding of Christianity is something that is under their intentional, purposeful control. If people want to engage in arguing, contention, and hatred, then they can. In other words: It's your choice! It's your choice what you do or do not post, and it is also your choice as regards the 'spirit' and attitude and choice of words which you personally choose to use in responding to another.
--You see, you all are the ones who 'make' this forum. If you are posting, and you are a Christian, then make no mistake: YOU are contributing to whether or not this is, in fact, a Christianity forum...Or not.
Lastly, as regards the (now deleted/edited) comment that was made indicating that having a "believing mod" was something they missed: You have one. That is fact. There is a believer mod, and a nonbeliever mod.
~~And then, there are members. Members who choose to post here, and within whose absolute, individual control exists the power to determine whether or not this is, in fact, a "Christianity forum."
YOUR written thoughts and words and attitudes, folks. -Which, in turn, creates the type of either "Christian" or "non-Christian" atmosphere that you,yourselves, determine:
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing....Love is patient, love is kind...It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered...it does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres."
And...
"...I put childish ways behind me."
This nonbeliever thinks that even our own "Terms of Service" couldn't have specified, or said, what the posting requirements on this forum should actually be about better than the above....
~~But again, it's up to each and every one of you.
They do. Whether a Christian agrees with another Christian or not, Christians "have a voice in discussing their own faith" on this forum.
As does any member who respectfully adheres to the Terms of Service and wishes to post on this subforum.
No argument here.
-No one has to engage in "one-up-manship" on any forum, on any thread, if they choose not to.
If they wish to do so, then that's another matter.
(The "Report Post" function exists for a reason.)
You really want to know where the "hatred" comes from?
--In June's opinion, it comes from individual egos. It's self-generated in the best interests of either "being right" or wishing to push one's own agenda. June is not, specifically, saying this to you, Robin. It's a "collective posting" type affair.
You all complain that the Christianity subforum "isn't Christian." Well, it seems to June that whether it is, or whether or not it isn't, is completely, soley, utterly dependent upon those who post here. --You want less contention? Less arguing? Less attacking? Less "hatred?" --Believe June when she tells you that it is within each and every member's ability --andheart--to bring that about. Seriously!
As an alleged "outsider" who is not a Christian, it's interesting to note that there is more contention and arguing on this forum than anywhere else. June, personally, is used to it; she's been on here long enough. However, what is intriguing is the fact that everyone complains as regards who is, who isn't (a Christian or not) all the while that they defend their faith in a way that doesn't bespeak the true meaning, message of Christianity.
You're all far more invested in the "I-am-right" dynamic than you are in the true underpinnings of Christianity at times. June can absolutely, positively understand, respect, and endorse any member defending their own denominational understanding of faith. She truly, truly, has absolutely no problem with that, and it's a "thing of beauty" when it actually happens, on rare occasion, without discourse or contention. --But somehow, the "denominational warfare" that ensues on here each and every minute of each and every day somehow does not bespeak what "Christians" are called to do.
First off, you alienate one another. Battle lines are drawn. --That hardly bespeaks (to this individual's mind) what the true meaning of "the body of Christ" is supposed to mean, and represent. -Each side, each denomination feels the need to "be right." That creates the discord, and disunity. Call me crazy, but that leads to: Secondly, the fact that any nonbeliever who potentially comes here finds that their atheism is simply reinforced. It's a sad fact and reality for many over the past couple of years, and one that has been addressed/posted about time and again. As well, those who are seekers and those who you would most hope to reach ("the lost") feel likewise.
In short: The choice of how each and every Christian on this forum chooses to depict themselves and their understanding of Christianity is something that is under their intentional, purposeful control. If people want to engage in arguing, contention, and hatred, then they can. In other words: It's your choice! It's your choice what you do or do not post, and it is also your choice as regards the 'spirit' and attitude and choice of words which you personally choose to use in responding to another.
--You see, you all are the ones who 'make' this forum. If you are posting, and you are a Christian, then make no mistake: YOU are contributing to whether or not this is, in fact, a Christianity forum...Or not.
Lastly, as regards the (now deleted/edited) comment that was made indicating that having a "believing mod" was something they missed: You have one. That is fact. There is a believer mod, and a nonbeliever mod.
~~And then, there are members. Members who choose to post here, and within whose absolute, individual control exists the power to determine whether or not this is, in fact, a "Christianity forum."
YOUR written thoughts and words and attitudes, folks. -Which, in turn, creates the type of either "Christian" or "non-Christian" atmosphere that you,yourselves, determine:
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing....Love is patient, love is kind...It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered...it does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres."
And...
"...I put childish ways behind me."
This nonbeliever thinks that even our own "Terms of Service" couldn't have specified, or said, what the posting requirements on this forum should actually be about better than the above....
~~But again, it's up to each and every one of you.
They do. Whether a Christian agrees with another Christian or not, Christians "have a voice in discussing their own faith" on this forum.
As does any member who respectfully adheres to the Terms of Service and wishes to post on this subforum.
No argument here.
-No one has to engage in "one-up-manship" on any forum, on any thread, if they choose not to.
If they wish to do so, then that's another matter.
(The "Report Post" function exists for a reason.)
You really want to know where the "hatred" comes from?
--In June's opinion, it comes from individual egos. It's self-generated in the best interests of either "being right" or wishing to push one's own agenda. June is not, specifically, saying this to you, Robin. It's a "collective posting" type affair.
You all complain that the Christianity subforum "isn't Christian." Well, it seems to June that whether it is, or whether or not it isn't, is completely, soley, utterly dependent upon those who post here. --You want less contention? Less arguing? Less attacking? Less "hatred?" --Believe June when she tells you that it is within each and every member's ability --andheart--to bring that about. Seriously!
As an alleged "outsider" who is not a Christian, it's interesting to note that there is more contention and arguing on this forum than anywhere else. June, personally, is used to it; she's been on here long enough. However, what is intriguing is the fact that everyone complains as regards who is, who isn't (a Christian or not) all the while that they defend their faith in a way that doesn't bespeak the true meaning, message of Christianity.
You're all far more invested in the "I-am-right" dynamic than you are in the true underpinnings of Christianity at times. June can absolutely, positively understand, respect, and endorse any member defending their own denominational understanding of faith. She truly, truly, has absolutely no problem with that, and it's a "thing of beauty" when it actually happens, on rare occasion, without discourse or contention. --But somehow, the "denominational warfare" that ensues on here each and every minute of each and every day somehow does not bespeak what "Christians" are called to do.
First off, you alienate one another. Battle lines are drawn. --That hardly bespeaks (to this individual's mind) what the true meaning of "the body of Christ" is supposed to mean, and represent. -Each side, each denomination feels the need to "be right." That creates the discord, and disunity. Call me crazy, but that leads to: Secondly, the fact that any nonbeliever who potentially comes here finds that their atheism is simply reinforced. It's a sad fact and reality for many over the past couple of years, and one that has been addressed/posted about time and again. As well, those who are seekers and those who you would most hope to reach ("the lost") feel likewise.
In short: The choice of how each and every Christian on this forum chooses to depict themselves and their understanding of Christianity is something that is under their intentional, purposeful control. If people want to engage in arguing, contention, and hatred, then they can. In other words: It's your choice! It's your choice what you do or do not post, and it is also your choice as regards the 'spirit' and attitude and choice of words which you personally choose to use in responding to another.
--You see, you all are the ones who 'make' this forum. If you are posting, and you are a Christian, then make no mistake: YOU are contributing to whether or not this is, in fact, a Christianity forum...Or not.
Lastly, as regards the (now deleted/edited) comment that was made indicating that having a "believing mod" was something they missed: You have one. That is fact. There is a believer mod, and a nonbeliever mod.
~~And then, there are members. Members who choose to post here, and within whose absolute, individual control exists the power to determine whether or not this is, in fact, a "Christianity forum."
YOUR written thoughts and words and attitudes, folks. -Which, in turn, creates the type of either "Christian" or "non-Christian" atmosphere that you,yourselves, determine:
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing....Love is patient, love is kind...It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered...it does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres."
And... "...I put childish ways behind me."
This nonbeliever thinks that even our own "Terms of Service" couldn't have specified, or said, what the posting requirements on this forum should actually be about better than the above....
~~But again, it's up to each and every one of you.
Take gentle care.
Why does it take an unbeliever to set the example for Christian behavior?
I believe that, among many other things, the sharing of different ideas and strong, open, even vigorous debate is at the heart of freedom and progress (spiritual and otherwise).
I like what Paul did on Mars hill. He knew exactly what he was walking into. Yet he knew that even though some of what he said would be mocked and scoffed at, this foreign idea would resonate it's truth and change things for the better. Remember - in his day HE was the minority heretic.
Though I have other places I post where most everyone thinks more like me I honestly LOVE it when what I say is vigorously challenged. It makes me think more deeply about what I have said (and sometimes even makes me change my mind) and obviously (since a response came) my hard sought information or revelation has been heard and possibly considered.
This kind of 'open' discussion forum is not for everyone and honestly, if you can't bring the goods and take the heat (like Paul did) than a nice little cozy agreeable mainstream orthodox forum may suite you much better. A place where doctrines are not so questioned or scrutinized. "Group think" is fine if that's what you want - but it's not for everyone either and it CAN be dangerous in it's own way.
There is a breed of Christian that has always given orthodoxy fits. Those brave enough to expose some of the hypocrisies and contradictions of the majority. Those who don't just nicely slip into a pre-made doctrinal mold.
I disagree that this forum is not Christian - in fact this forum is SO Christian it's not funny. By that I mean it's just like real world Christianity. Go to just about any church meeting worldwide (I have) and you will have fundies railing against liberals, liberals denouncing fundamentalism, the same concerns about new age, apostasy, homosexuality, atheism - basically everything you see and hear right here.
I've learned so much here because iron sharpens iron, conflict brings progress.
I've seen many cases where people got ugly and later apologized. That's real life folks! You meet folks you don't like, you spout off, maybe have to apologize, learn to love 'in spite of', maybe even learn a few things about yourself. Yes - it gets messy but Christianity has ALWAYS been messy.
Stinking fishermen and bloody confrontations of all kinds. But we learn that in the end - love and forgiveness can conquer anything - even death.
I believe that, among many other things, the sharing of different ideas and strong, open, even vigorous debate is at the heart of freedom and progress (spiritual and otherwise).
I like what Paul did on Mars hill. He knew exactly what he was walking into. Yet he knew that even though some of what he said would be mocked and scoffed at, this foreign idea would resonate it's truth and change things for the better. Remember - in his day HE was the minority heretic.
Though I have other places I post where most everyone thinks more like me I honestly LOVE it when what I say is vigorously challenged. It makes me think more deeply about what I have said (and sometimes even makes me change my mind) and obviously (since a response came) my hard sought information or revelation has been heard and possibly considered.
This kind of 'open' discussion forum is not for everyone and honestly, if you can't bring the goods and take the heat (like Paul did) than a nice little cozy agreeable mainstream orthodox forum may suite you much better. A place where doctrines are not so questioned or scrutinized. "Group think" is fine if that's what you want - but it's not for everyone either and it CAN be dangerous in it's own way.
There is a breed of Christian that has always given orthodoxy fits. Those brave enough to expose some of the hypocrisies and contradictions of the majority. Those who don't just nicely slip into a pre-made doctrinal mold.
I disagree that this forum is not Christian - in fact this forum is SO Christian it's not funny. By that I mean it's just like real world Christianity. Go to just about any church meeting worldwide (I have) and you will have fundies railing against liberals, liberals denouncing fundamentalism, the same concerns about new age, apostasy, homosexuality, atheism - basically everything you see and hear right here.
I've learned so much here because iron sharpens iron, conflict brings progress.
I've seen many cases where people got ugly and later apologized. That's real life folks! You meet folks you don't like, you spout off, maybe have to apologize, learn to love 'in spite of', maybe even learn a few things about yourself. Yes - it gets messy but Christianity has ALWAYS been messy.
Stinking fishermen and bloody confrontations of all kinds. But we learn that in the end - love and forgiveness can conquer anything - even death.
Selah
I agree! Wonderful post. I have also learned much and appreciate the diversity in thought here.
Firstborn you said at the end of your post "love and forgiveness can conquer anything - even death".
This thought came to me just the other day and wanted to share it on here , but you know how it goes "show me a word by word scripture that says love and forgiveness can conquer anything - even death". I suppose it just goes to show how blind fundamental christianity is that it cannnot see it being the main thread throughout the scripture.
I believe that, among many other things, the sharing of different ideas and strong, open, even vigorous debate is at the heart of freedom and progress (spiritual and otherwise).
I like what Paul did on Mars hill. He knew exactly what he was walking into. Yet he knew that even though some of what he said would be mocked and scoffed at, this foreign idea would resonate it's truth and change things for the better. Remember - in his day HE was the minority heretic.
Though I have other places I post where most everyone thinks more like me I honestly LOVE it when what I say is vigorously challenged. It makes me think more deeply about what I have said (and sometimes even makes me change my mind) and obviously (since a response came) my hard sought information or revelation has been heard and possibly considered.
This kind of 'open' discussion forum is not for everyone and honestly, if you can't bring the goods and take the heat (like Paul did) than a nice little cozy agreeable mainstream orthodox forum may suite you much better. A place where doctrines are not so questioned or scrutinized. "Group think" is fine if that's what you want - but it's not for everyone either and it CAN be dangerous in it's own way.
There is a breed of Christian that has always given orthodoxy fits. Those brave enough to expose some of the hypocrisies and contradictions of the majority. Those who don't just nicely slip into a pre-made doctrinal mold.
I disagree that this forum is not Christian - in fact this forum is SO Christian it's not funny. By that I mean it's just like real world Christianity. Go to just about any church meeting worldwide (I have) and you will have fundies railing against liberals, liberals denouncing fundamentalism, the same concerns about new age, apostasy, homosexuality, atheism - basically everything you see and hear right here.
I've learned so much here because iron sharpens iron, conflict brings progress.
I've seen many cases where people got ugly and later apologized. That's real life folks! You meet folks you don't like, you spout off, maybe have to apologize, learn to love 'in spite of', maybe even learn a few things about yourself. Yes - it gets messy but Christianity has ALWAYS been messy.
Stinking fishermen and bloody confrontations of all kinds. But we learn that in the end - love and forgiveness can conquer anything - even death.
Selah
I was actually going to give you a rep for this one FB but I'm in rep jail right now. Well said brother!!
I have noticed many here have no wish to understand Christianity, only twisting it with senseless questions that no matter how you answer it will be further twisted.
Ever heard that comeback line that "There are no senseless questions"? You've indicated here that you don't want ANY questions about your faith that seek the" inconvenient truth".
How about those of us who were once devoted Christians, and who asked innocent simple questions, but were told to "...not question the faith, but just believe, my son! It is not yours to ask of The Lord!" Etc.
Have you ever examined both sides of these issues, honestly? Unlikely, for most Christians. You've only seen it from one side, whereas most all thinking atheists I know at least explored Christianity, but then found it vexing and illogical. And, in my case, completely unnecessary to enjoy a happy, peaceful and productive life. one of giving, loving and peace. All of which you folks often snearingly say we cannot have, being "morally rudderless" and "essentially evil".
That typical approach to kindly discussion is sorta lacking, wouldn't you say?
I actually find this rather interesting in that they show their true colors and their hatred of Christianity.
Wrong # 2. In my case, and in that of many others here I know of, it's not a hatred of Christianity, but rather of the senseless, unquestioning, blindered intellectual stranglehold it has on the minds of otherwise thinking people. It's been that way since long before The Spanish Inquisition (and no, your side will NEVER live that one down, esp. since many in today's Church would LOVE to see such Draconian measures returned, but just can't get the power to do so...)
This is amply and easily demonstrated when we converts present some straightforward rational questions, to which we are provided purely nonsense answers, ad hominem attacks, deflective or straw-man arguments, etc.
Example: Question: Please briefly define which aspects of the mechanisms of Evolution you do not believe to exist or operate.
Answer: You are being hostile, but regardless, God is Lord of all!!
As this becomes more predictable and undeniable, you might forgive us our developing a somewhat hardened perspective, because NOT ONCE have we seen a well-thought out argument on the rational side in support of Christianity.
Of course, that's to be expected, since Christianity is not based on logic. As you'd have to agree and admit. Rather, it's based on faith, "feelings", "experiences I've had that you haven't..." and thus personalinterpretations. Not on cold, hard logic.Not on facts. And nowadays, not even on the faintest pretext of rationality, given all the alternative evidence.
I know many will object and further incriminate themselves but they wont even realize what they are doing.
Zhat so? Have I? (If you think so, then actually, it would be YOU that's unwittingly provided a case-in-point to my rebuke.)
We can point to these things within the Bible yet again they will be rejected or twisted to mean something not even resembling the Bible that many will refer back to as evidence against the Bible further the circular reasoning they accuse Christian of.
So.... when you post walls of scripture, or shout that Noah's Ark, for instance, is "absolutely true, and has been proven, because scripture says so!" or that "God created the universe in 6 days", despite all the factual and easily observed evidence to the contrary, we should just intellectually roll over, huh? And then, when questioned on the nitty-gritty details of your thinly-thought-out version, you toss in some recently created but highly imaginative (and totally implausible) alternate story that strains credulity...
So... You mean, when you behave like this..... we should all just bow down and mutter "Oh! Now I see the light! All my own careful introspection and thought and conclusions, and those of billions of others who also DO NOT believe in the Abrahamic God... why...... it's all bunk! My thinking's bunk!"
I can see this as others see it as well and we are accused and attacked for making such points further outing the twisters and nonbelievers or possibly makebelievers and of course we are the bad guys because we share scripture which they cannot fully understand so they attack yet again and accuse us of hatred.
Wow. Simply.... an amazing perspective, coming from one who rejects giving simple answers for simple requests. Time and again.
Know this, If I personally hated anyone I am personally capable of carrying out what I have been accused of but I haven't and do not plan to.
Huh? You really lost me here.I've accused most Christian apologists who post here on C-D of being of limited vision, of being incapable of providing a logical rebuttal, or of being respectful when they are cornered by a logical argument.
Perhaps you do have hit it right: you haven't, and do not plan to.... provide a logical and polite response. OK; gottcha!
It is rather interesting yet we cannot clarify enough without being attacked in one way or another.
You may have hit the nail on the head here again, inadvertently. You cannot yet clarify enough to satisfy the mostbasic demands of logic, rationality and of course, proof of your claims. Against that, we have an exponentially-growing body of knowledge, much of it in unrelated disciplines of thinking which reach out to conjoin with other knowledge and thus increase it's overall credibility. That's what we acknowledge, and that's what confirms most or all of what you propose or defend, to be nonsense if taken literally.
If you don't believe in the Bible, fine your loss. But it has been proven as fact over thousands of years and billions of attack and it still remains true as ever.
Absolutely wrong, but conveniently, here's yet another absolutedemonstration of why you get the response you do. I could ask some more questions, or take your tack and simply say: "No, it's YOUR loss! Neener, neener neener!" Perhaps that's the best way to communicate with you.
Thanks for trolling though....
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!!! 
!!!
Talk about "twisted" thinking....
