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The City That Sings is certainly not a rediculous moniker for Cincinnati. I am not saying it should reflect the entire city like a nickname. But the May Festival Chorus is one of the oldest choral groups in the entire country, and recognized for its excellence. My wife, who was trained as a coloratura soprano during her teens, enjoyed many years as a member of the chorus. Since I had put the kibosh on our moving to New York for her pursuing an opera career, she found her outlet in the May Festival Chorus. Her pursuit of singing there gave her great joy.
Look at the long history of the May Festival Chorus and Cincinnati is truely a city that sings.
Look at the long history of the May Festival Chorus and Cincinnati is truely a city that sings.
A City that Sings: Cincinnati’s Choral Tradition, is from May Festival Chorus.
The City that Sings was coined amid all the hype of the World Choir Games in 2012, and I think by Laure Quinlivan.
Not to nit pick, but there is a major difference. Your example is legitimate and points out Cincinnati's musical heritage. Our city leadership tried a very weak marketing ploy by coming up with The City that Sings.
Try telling Dayton up the road to brand itself... now that's a hard nut to crack!
I have an issue with this statement. Dayton Patented (current marketing campaign) is a good summation of what we do, especially now with the research done at WPAFB.
Dayton has a very good reputation among technical / engineering types. In fact, here's a recent Forbes article which shows the Dayton metro has the fourth most engineers per capita.
Although I have heard issues with Dayton's IT culture (ask Ohioan58 for more info on that), I feel like IT in general has a bad culture. IT types are in the profession for a reason, and being social / extroverted is not one of them. Again, this point is debatable (Google for instance has arguably the nation's best corporate culture and is a tech company), but hopefully you all get where I am coming from although I am definitely hoping to hear other perspectives.
Also Dayton has great recreational opportunities, a plethora of suburbs with good schools and amenities, a stellar arts scene, and some pretty cool neighborhoods. Dayton also has great accessibility to other major metros (FYI we are the closest major metropolitan area if you are in Cincinnati, Columbus, or Indianapolis), and 60% of the US and Canadian population is within a day's drive or a 90-min flight.
Dayton gets a lot of negative connotation from its size relative to other metros. Because we can't support as many upscale stores, significant downtown investment, a major league sports team, or whatever else people want, we are considered not as good as other places. And there's a variety of factors that go into this, from Dayton's relative proximity to Cincy & Columbus to its traditionally blue-collar roots.
But it is complete ignorance to think Dayton is not competitive or unable to brand itself in its current state. There's a lot of good reasons to want to be in Dayton, and there's a lot that can be done within the city for far less expense than elsewhere. Our human capital, as shown by the Forbes article, has a very unique skill set, as does Cincinnati's or Columbus' or that of any other city. That's where Dayton can market itself.
This post well-emphasizes the two extremes of Cincinnatian thought.
One is the one characterized in this post, the one of a progressive urbanist like myself or many of the other people who post on this site.
The other is the more conservative / libertarian viewpoint which the majority of Cincinnati area residents (like Kjbrill) possess.
Viewpoint 1 generally wants more, because they see getting it (or "progress") as achievable.
Viewpoint 2 is happy with what exists and has no interest in pursuing more amenities (and therefore does not want "progress").
Most cities lean strongly one way or the other. For many years, Cincinnati has leaned strongly towards viewpoint 2, although that is changing with the initiatives (and the people who lead them) in places like OTR.
... and there's the issue. Which viewpoint will win? Right now, the clear winner is Viewpoint 1, and unless we see some major leadership change or economic hardship, I don't see that changing soon.
OHKID, this is exactly why nothing gets worked out in this country today. It's so easy to make your point when you make it the only relevant point by conveniently placing everyone in 2 boxes, the "with me" or "against me" box. Doing so shuts out all opinions but those of the labeler(s) and that is not what this country was built on. No one wants to accept that we all come at things from very varied perspectives, not just two perspectives. Placing people in the "for" and "against" buckets is easy, but cuts off any opportunity for dialogue because you have already labeled them. Progress is not as simple as an idea or something that sounds good in concept, it is an achievement born of thoughtful consideration of opinions of all interested parties and responsible planning and analysis of the impact (present and future) on the community. Of course, this is never easy.
Although I have heard issues with Dayton's IT culture (ask Ohioan58 for more info on that), I feel like IT in general has a bad culture. IT types are in the profession for a reason, and being social / extroverted is not one of them. Again, this point is debatable (Google for instance has arguably the nation's best corporate culture and is a tech company), but hopefully you all get where I am coming from although I am definitely hoping to hear other perspectives.
I am in the IT industry and without getting too detailed with personal experiences and maintaining a degree of professionalism, I'll just say this, IT works best in less conservative corporate cultures, which tend to thrive in socially liberal environments as they allow for work to get done more efficiently and knowledge to be shared more freely. I know from personal experience. A company that is old school and is too top down / focused on status/politics instead of knowledge is not going to be a leader in the industry.
Dayton is not a place that would foster corporate cultures that are non-traditional. I know- I grew up in a suburb of there - it was suffocating for me. To top it off the city is literally drab and the weather is not good, those suburbs are awful places where peoples idea of a good time is going to Applebees for dinner - everyone marries at a young age too. My class reunion was incredibly depressing just to see how people live who stuck around there...
Raleigh NC is also cheap, and not only that is a major current center of innovation, attracting people from all over the world, its workforce is generally better educated than Dayton and with a warmer climate and a location 3 hours from the beach and 3 hours from the mountains there are plenty of outdoor recreational activities. It also is centrally located, with a ton of other urban clusters in its superregion (the Piedmont, which has Atlanta as its anchor) and close ties to the Northeast, where the real power/money/cultural base lies in this country.
Which one is more appealing? The city that innovated a heck of a lot 50-60 years ago, and today is stagnant (though still has a few good companies that are legacies of those days) or the current place that has a hot job market that pretty much never had a recession? Trying to market Dayton seems a lot harder when you look at its competition and Raliegh is a 2nd tier tech hub (pretty comparable to what Dayton was historically), I'm not even comparing it to Seattle or Boston let alone the Bay Area (which IMO is #1 because of how incredibly socially liberal it is out there - people take huge risks and foster non traditional corporate environments that tech innovation thrives in). There is a much stronger job market too that would allow for people to get more varied and interesting jobs.
While Dayton is more urban than Raleigh, its urban environment isn't really that competitive - much of the city is being gutted and frankly the city's environment just isn't anything special - you could flip it out between 3 or 4 different Midwestern cities a few of which have better economies (Columbus or Indianapolis come to mind). So you have one suburban environment versus another. Which one has more appeal to someone fresh out of college? I would say Raleigh because innovation is happening now there and there is enough new people in the region that it helps promote a more socially open environment (even if NC is in the South this influx of new residents helps offset the problems that region would have as well as giving it better weather). Both cities are pretty cheap btw.
What would make Dayton distinguish itself from places like Raleigh? Cincinnati I could answer at least has a strong corporate base (though not conductive to the innovation culture I discussed but at least is a good source of capital/advice see cintrifuse) and an amazing urban environment that needs some TLC but still is stand out particularly for the price point of Cincy, and there are even a few suburbs like Mariemont, Wyoming and Bellevue (to a lesser extent) that are totally unique and have advantages like improving (Bellevue) to excellent (Mariemont or Wyoming) school districts. There are a few standout things in Cincy when looking at the country as a whole that I don't see Dayton having - that's what makes marketing the region so difficult for Dayton.
Last edited by neilworms2; 09-05-2013 at 10:07 PM..
OHKID, this is exactly why nothing gets worked out in this country today. It's so easy to make your point when you make it the only relevant point by conveniently placing everyone in 2 boxes, the "with me" or "against me" box. Doing so shuts out all opinions but those of the labeler(s) and that is not what this country was built on. No one wants to accept that we all come at things from very varied perspectives, not just two perspectives. Placing people in the "for" and "against" buckets is easy, but cuts off any opportunity for dialogue because you have already labeled them. Progress is not as simple as an idea or something that sounds good in concept, it is an achievement born of thoughtful consideration of opinions of all interested parties and responsible planning and analysis of the impact (present and future) on the community. Of course, this is never easy.
was1965, your statement is very true. I particularly like the bolded section. It is impossible to put every person and every view into two convenient buckets, there is way too much gray area in perspective to do such a thing.
My statement was a brief generalization of what I personally have noticed living in the area my entire life. A lot of the difference is generational, and a lot of it is based on instilled perception.
I'm not necessarily saying everyone can fit conveniently into two buckets, but I have found it can come pretty close. For instance, there is a wide difference in perspective on the future of worse areas of many cities like Cincinnati or Dayton. I think with proper planning, school options, and economic opportunity, it is possible to revitalize neighborhoods within city limits in a way which creates a sustainable and diverse community. Look at Hyde Park as an example.
Most others I know think bad neighborhoods are better off being leveled and abandoned. And that "good neighborhoods" come only from building new. Again, it's not like everyone I know goes around shouting this, but most I know feel politically along these lines to at least some degree, albeit small for some and large for others. And there's the gray area between - cities have to use their scarce resources to pursue only the initiatives which are most likely to succeed. Like in Cincinnati, redeveloping Glencoe could have been very cool, but its condition and location caused it to be demolished instead. I view its demolition as a failure, others view it as a success, and a lot of people aren't quite sure what to think. Again, all a matter of perspective.
I am in the IT industry and without getting too detailed with personal experiences and maintaining a degree of professionalism, I'll just say this, IT works best in less conservative corporate cultures, which tend to thrive in socially liberal environments as they allow for work to get done more efficiently and knowledge to be shared more freely. I know from personal experience. A company that is old school and is too top down / focused on status/politics instead of knowledge is not going to be a leader in the industry.
Dayton is not a place that would foster corporate cultures that are non-traditional. I know- I grew up in a suburb of there - it was suffocating for me. To top it off the city is literally drab and the weather is not good, those suburbs are awful places where peoples idea of a good time is going to Applebees for dinner - everyone marries at a young age too. My class reunion was incredibly depressing just to see how people live who stuck around there...
Raleigh NC is also cheap, and not only that is a major current center of innovation, attracting people from all over the world, its workforce is generally better educated than Dayton and with a warmer climate and a location 3 hours from the beach and 3 hours from the mountains there are plenty of outdoor recreational activities. It also is centrally located, with a ton of other urban clusters in its superregion (the Piedmont, which has Atlanta as its anchor) and close ties to the Northeast, where the real power/money/cultural base lies in this country.
Which one is more appealing? The city that innovated a heck of a lot 50-60 years ago, and today is stagnant (though still has a few good companies that are legacies of those days) or the current place that has a hot job market that pretty much never had a recession? Trying to market Dayton seems a lot harder when you look at its competition and Raliegh is a 2nd tier tech hub (pretty comparable to what Dayton was historically), I'm not even comparing it to Seattle or Boston let alone the Bay Area (which IMO is #1 because of how incredibly socially liberal it is out there - people take huge risks and foster non traditional corporate environments that tech innovation thrives in). There is a much stronger job market too that would allow for people to get more varied and interesting jobs.
While Dayton is more urban than Raleigh, its urban environment isn't really that competitive - much of the city is being gutted and frankly the city's environment just isn't anything special - you could flip it out between 3 or 4 different Midwestern cities a few of which have better economies (Columbus or Indianapolis come to mind). So you have one suburban environment versus another. Which one has more appeal to someone fresh out of college? I would say Raleigh because innovation is happening now there and there is enough new people in the region that it helps promote a more socially open environment (even if NC is in the South this influx of new residents helps offset the problems that region would have as well as giving it better weather). Both cities are pretty cheap btw.
What would make Dayton distinguish itself from places like Raleigh? Cincinnati I could answer at least has a strong corporate base (though not conductive to the innovation culture I discussed but at least is a good source of capital/advice see cintrifuse) and an amazing urban environment that needs some TLC but still is stand out particularly for the price point of Cincy, and there are even a few suburbs like Mariemont, Wyoming and Bellevue (to a lesser extent) that are totally unique and have advantages like improving (Bellevue) to excellent (Mariemont or Wyoming) school districts. There are a few standout things in Cincy when looking at the country as a whole that I don't see Dayton having - that's what makes marketing the region so difficult for Dayton.
Counterpoints:
1. Weather - Most do not have the luxury to base relocation decisions on weather. If they do, Ohio does not have that bad of a climate - try moving to the UP of Michigan where summer only lasts about 2 months!
2. Outdoor recreation - again, a matter of perspective. If you like cycling, Dayton has the nation's best trail system. The Miami, Mad, and Stillwater rivers are ideal for canoeing and kayaking. Hiking trails are abundant.
3. Restaurants - it depends on the suburb. I grew up near Middletown, and I feel how you felt about "boring suburb, Applebee's" with Middletown's restaurants. It only gets worse as you hit northern Cincy suburbia or South Dayton suburbia, both areas I feel are more representative of a suburban "Daytonnati" rather than having strong ties to either city (because honestly, talk to the residents of that area and you will see the amount of urban affinity they have). As for more info on the great Dayton independent restaurant scene, refer here: Member Restaurants | Dine Out Dayton!
4. Class Reunion - why would you subject yourself to such torture?
5. Raleigh - If a company is looking to be close to WPAFB, or in a logistical hub, Raleigh is not going to work. For some select companies that can choose to locate anywhere in the nation, most of their time their factors of choice are far from qualitative, and significant cost-benefit analysis comes into play. Whether the Dayton area makes it through that process is a whole different issue. It did for P&G's new DC, Caresource, AIDA, etc.
6. Southern job market - check unemployment figures. You might be surprised.
7. Suburban Life - how are Germantown, Tipp City, Troy, Yellow Springs, or Oakwood not unique or without good schools?
Dayton is easily marketable. So is Cincinnati. I'd be more worried right now if I was in Charlotte NC - what do they have that's different from West Chester or Florence? I cannot think of anything personally (except maybe humidity). Additionally, both of the Cincy area suburban options have good proximity to a variety of diverse cities and can capitalize on their options. Which one would you pick?
OHKID, as a former Dayton resident I have a little to say. I think you make some really good points concerning what the Dayton metro has going for it. However, one seemingly consistent theme amongst your many points, (and I like what you have to say) is you leave out the city of Dayton proper. The city of Dayton is the biggest detraction for the Dayton region. Until that city makes some sort of effort towards stabilizing itself by figuring out how to retain/attract businesses and residents it's downward spiral will continue, and the city of Dayton definitely gives the Dayton metro a black eye.
Does anyone know how much of the Casino tax revenue is going into downtown development? Funds need to be spent on cleaning up the area around and about Fountain Square. Buildings need to be painted and sand washed, sidewalks need to be repaved, lighting has to be aesthetically designed, and parking structures should have "fronts" that are pleasing to the eye. If government money is unavailable, who can place this responsibility on the business owners?
Downtown is being revitalized with an influx of people moving into apartments and condos. There are hardly any vacancies. That tells you downtown Cincinnati has a ton to offer. Now let's work on making it more salubrious with urbanscaping and a good scrub. Who's got the funds? Let's go!
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- everyone marries at a young age too. My class reunion was incredibly depressing just to see how people live who stuck around there...
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