Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Comparing the Loop to all of Manhattan is not apples & apples. To be fair to Chicago, the truer comparison would be the stretch of urban neighborhoods that flank the loop from the north and south. This linear progression of neighborhoods gives a similar variety of experiences that one finds in all of Manahattan. It's also a fairer geographic comparison. Manhattan is more than 13 miles long. If you stretch along the lake through a variety of urban neighborhoods, you will find things similar to Manhattan. If you want to be fair, compare the loop to Downtown Manhattan or another specific area of the island.
Not really. Chicago has a lot of big buildings in the Loop and then its charm lies elsewhere. It's one wide and shiny street after another. In Manhattan, there are a lot of quiet, one-way streets lined with brownstones that are very close to all of the commercial activity. Take this street for example.
I think the difference between Manhattan/Center City and Chicago is that the former really began as quaint, colonial villages. Obviously, there was no anticipation of the automobile when most of these cities were built. So, in essence, city planners and developers have been trying to bring the cities into modern times. Sometimes this means the demolition of historical structures, but in both cities, and Philadelphia in particular, a lot of effort goes into the preservation of these structures. So you're left with a very distinct contrast between the ancient and the modern. Chicago, I think, has a lot less of this contrast.
Here is some thoughts on what to me feel like the 6 largest downtowns:
5 of the 6 give that canyon feel; NYC (From Houston up), Philly (Arch to Walnut and 12th to the Schuckyll), SF Downtown, and DC (just smaller canyons but they go on and on) - Boston esp downtown feels like a smaller Wall Street area because the roads twist, not as much canyon because the buildings block views at the street level)
NYC - A scale of its own - just goes and goes, but the viallage or SOHO/Tribeca for example feel much more residential and further from the CBDs.
Chicago - Loop and Mag mile feel either more CBD (Loop) or a strip of 5th Avenue (Mag Mile) - many residential neighborhoods are a little removed and evening vibrance is at times a little removed from the core. Also River North seems somehow a little less vibrant, the newer highrises are set back a bit, but a very cool neighborhood none the less. The gold coast is very cool but not really in walking/striking distance of the downtown.
Philadelphia - A smaller version of the canyon/CBD with cohesive neighborhoods, maybe the most centric of all cities as most of the cities vibrant areas are packed right up against the CBD and with the exception of Boston maybe the most integrated into a small area with everything all in one.
San Francisco -Again a CBD with canyons and moderate integration with residential, though to me it seems just a tab bit more removed residential vibrant areas, but flows pretty seemlessly and the highrise residential integrates pretty seemlessly in the core.
Boston - Similar to Philly in that it's neighborhoods and nightlife are mostly integrated within just a few blocks. It somehow seems just a little smaller but I think some of this is the non-linear aspects of the downtown, maybe it is purely optics at street-level. Also the neighborhoods seem to wind from the core a little more than Philly, not sure how this impacts but somehow seems a tad less cohesive on the whole when compared to philly.
DC -The short version of Chicago - the CBD is large and goes quiet in the evening, many of the vibrant neighborhoods although close are pretty much removed from the core, like Chicago walkable but the distance feels greater.
In short to me these feel like the 6 best downtowns and are all a little different and all offer a pretty high level of downtown vibrance.
Other cities like LA, Seattle, Cincinatti, KC, Baltimore, Atlanta also have pretty good downtowns and just seem maybe one level down from the others (Thoough NYC and Chicago seem their own level respectively in CBD scale)
On this topic I think an argument can be made for Phillys downtown on the integrated cohesion as achieving this concentrated day/night vibrance in one area, but Chicago is definately the #2 CBD, especially daytime. I also believe that on vibe I mostly feel Philly feels the "closest" in many ways on feel and vibe day/night of NYC - maybe it is the proximity and tight streets that add to this. Chicago feels just a tad more midwestern in speed/people/vibe and more spread out which may be why it differs a bit more from the NYC feel.
Personally though I thoroughly enjoy all these dowtowns
And btw, we don't wish we had something like Millenium Park. Parks, imo, are not one of Chicago's selling points. I'd take a Union Sq, Tomkins Sq, Washington Sq, Rittenhouse Sq, Logan Sq, and maybe even a McPherson Sq over Millenium Park any day. The Magnificent Mile, on the other hand, is very nice.
I think you made some really good points in your post but to be fair Millenium park does have some great aspects - interesting public art and the location is somewhat unique. The waterfront is pretty amazing, especially when the lake blazes that cool bright blue/green. Also the Museum and views are killer. It does seem less cohesive and grander in scale and overall I still believe one of the best urban parks in the country.
Rittenhouse sq is such a smaller scale and more integrated into the city fabric, a little green oasis so to speak. I think it is tough to compare them as they are developed and serve some different purposes.
Rittenhouse is more a small scale (much smaller) Central Park, or probably even more similar to Union Square, but a hybrid (similar to CC as it is a hybrid of Midtown and the Village all in one and no I am trying to say it is the same on either aspect).
But your points on the cohesion of neighborhoods aspects to me is mostly true of NYC/Philly versus the loop or even Mag Mile. Boston is also more similar to this makeup, and the Boston Commons is a great version of a park somewhere between Rittenhouse Square and Central Park.
And on logan square it has been mostly adapted into the parkway which is modeled after the Champs Elysees in Paris, glad to see more Museum development but Philly needs to better tuck humanity into this space, everything is set back so far, the new Barnes Musuem http://www.barnesfoundation.org/parkway/index.php#factsheet (broken link) will help but i always thought some moderate Highrises and street level retail/commercial would serve well to add more life that the parkway stretch without impeded on the grand avenue views from city hall to the art museum.
The Loop is far more urban than anything Philadelphia has to offer. You gotta be kidding me.
Btw, a fair comparison would be the Loop vs Market West, lmao there is no comparison there whatsoever. If you want to compare all of Center City, then you must include River North and the Gold Coast for Chicago. Either way, as far as vibrancy and urbanism is concerned, Chicago wins.
The crowds are bigger in Chicago during the day than Center City. The crowds on Michigan Avenue and the Loop are more bustling during the day time than Center City. At night, they are both about equal.
Center City has the neighborhood and charming vibe, but as far as density and vibrancy is concerned, I'd have to give it to Chicago by a notch. It's simply larger with more buildings, more upscale and the crowds are bigger.
First of all center city is more WAYY more alive in the night than the loop. Second of all, and as stated before, the loop is dead during the night because chicago is a newer city and was designed with the automobile in mind thus why their vibrant neighborhoods tend to be located on the northside. Its a known fact that the loop's (including river north, gold coast, near northside) skyline trump's center city by far, and in those areas combined there is a larger population than center city, but at lower density in a larger area. But a key aspect of "urbanism" is density (a very important aspect might I add) and built environment and in that field, center city trumps the loop (including river north, gold coast, near northside) in fact during the work week center city population swells to over 250,000 (up from about 100,000 who already live there) which is quite impressive considering center city has a 2 square mile land area.
But a key aspect of "urbanism" is density (a [b]very important aspect.....center city trumps the loop (including river north, gold coast, near northside) in fact during the work week center city population swells to over 250,000 (up from about 100,000 who already live there) which is quite impressive considering center city has a 2 square mile land area.
The one thing Center City has going for it is its livable European scale and compactness. The 2-3 sq miles of Center City packs quite a punch. Everything is within walking distance e.g., Historical attractions,cultural amenities,office buildings,amazing architecture,fantastic neighborhoods, diverse shopping ,universities, the 5 squares,recreational river trail. There are
92,000 residents, 250,000 office workers, and 100,000 college students packed into a relatively small area. 2,700 retail establishments within Center Citys border which is approximately 3 sq mi. 250 outdoor cafes , 60 bars and nightclubs. Now directly outside Center City its a little sketchy which is a major liabilty for Center City and one of the reasons Center City isnt as dynamic as it should be. Center City should be one of this countrys great treasures,and it is, but its immediate surroundings(Camden N Philly SW Philly etc) tarnishes it somewhat.
IMo Philly is arguably in the running for #3 best downtown after Manhattan and Chi.
BTW the last photo above is Walnut Street just outside of Rittenhouse park, this area has a high level of pedestrian traffic from 7Am to well after midnight most days and is basically where the CBD meets the residential areas
Last edited by kidphilly; 08-28-2010 at 09:43 AM..
Great shots but its obviously not more dense or lively than San Francisco. You could argue that its number two in charm, it certainly looks quite hip and a fun area.
I rather enjoyed DT Philly when I was there back in June. Here are a few shots I took just to display the density and compactness of its wonderful downtown:
Great shots but its obviously not more dense or lively than San Francisco. You could argue that its number two in charm, it certainly looks quite hip and a fun area.
This I disagree - having lived in both I think you would be hard pressed to say either is significantly more or less. To say obviously sounds a bit of an extreme over reach. And IMHO and again based in living in both I actually give an ever so slight edge to Philly (at least on the lively part as I do believe DT SF is slightly more dense population wise, neither at NYCs level), I know some SF folks will never accept that
And to Akhenaton - great shots though the summer is the slow time with many flocking to the Jersey shore
Lol the well-traveled card again huh? It was'nt really called for to pull it out in this case though. I was simply asking a question to those who know better than myself. This was just a weak attempt to impose a mightier than thou attitude on a self proclaimed king
So before i was so rudely interruptedcan anyone whose not saddled on a high horse tell me how chicago and nyc differ. One sentence would do im not asking for a pamphlet
And this is coming from somebody who calls him self "king of new york" huh?.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
can anyone whose not saddled on a high horse tell me how chicago and nyc differ. One sentence would do im not asking for a pamphlet
