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But again you have no evidence that Indy and Columbus' population growth is just a bunch of "dumbasses". Why does Pittsburgh's population decline translate into more smart people, but Columbus and Indy's growth does not?
Don't think that was his intent, what was being referred was that quality of imports is actually greater than quantity which of course is correct. I would agree with this. It's better to have an influx of 5000 tax paying individuals than it is to have 20k people come in and be on public assistance.
Don't think that was his intent, what was being referred was that quality of imports is actually greater than quantity which of course is correct. I would agree with this. It's better to have an influx of 5000 tax paying individuals than it is to have 20k people come in and be on public assistance.
In his previous post he did imply that Columbus and Indy were not gaining quality citizens and that Pittsburgh was so therefore their population gains were meaningless. I'm just asking for evidence.
Pittsburgh is a Northeastern city. Its strongest "churn" is with the extra-large cities to its east. Churn is defined as gross inflow plus gross outflow, and Pittsburgh's churn with Washington DC, Philadelphia and New York is larger than it is with any city in Ohio. In fact, those three cities rank #1, #2 and #3 on Pittsburgh's list, respectively, while various Ohio cities rank #4, #5 and #9, and Chicago ranks #10. Add up the total from Chicago and the Ohio cities, and you're still short ~20,000 compared to the big three on the east coast alone.
Even Mother Nature considers Pittsburgh to be part of the Northeast. On July 21, the core of this summer's big heat wave was in the Midwest, and Cleveland was hotter than Pittsburgh that day. On July 22, however, the core of the heat wave was in the Northeast, and Pittsburgh was hotter than Cleveland that day.
The built environment in Pittsburgh is different as well, resembling Philadelphia, Baltimore, and even Washington DC more than Cleveland or anyplace else in the industrial Midwest. State policy can't be overlooked either. Pittsburgh is located in Pennsylvania, a Northeastern state with Northeastern policies.
In terms of culture, the "superstation" that came with my family's cable package in Pittsburgh was WOR in New York. WGN in Chicago was not available. The biggest rivals for the Pirates prior to the MLB realignment were the Phillies and Mets, and many Pirates fans feel that the team has been misplaced in the NL Central. In the NHL, the Penguins are placed in the Atlantic Division of the Eastern Conference with the Flyers, Devils, Rangers and Islanders.
As for its comparison with Seattle and Portland, the over-55 populations in those two cities are much more highly educated than in Pittsburgh. Be that as it may, the margin shrinks dramatically when you compare the under-45 populations, and actually compares favorably to both cities in terms of the educational attainment of 25- to 34-year-olds, and every major city in terms of 25- to 34-year-olds with advanced college degrees.
As for its racial and ethnic comparison to Cleveland, blacks account for 30% of Cuyahoga County's population, but only 13% of Allegheny County's population. Furthermore, the Asian population increased faster between 2000 and 2010 in ALlegheny County (58%) than it did in Cuyahoga County (32%). Indeed, Cuyahoga County had more Asians in 2000, but Allegheny County had more Asians in 2010. Cuyahoga County still has plenty more Hispanics, though. Basically, Cuyahoga County is blacker and more Hispanic than Allegheny County, and Allegheny County is whiter and more Asian than Cuyahoga County.
Even the industrial reputations of Pittsburgh and Cleveland are different. Cleveland's industry was more diversified than Pittsburgh's, which is why Cleveland merely declined during the 1980's instead of collapsing like Pittsburgh did. By the 1990's, Pittsburgh had no choice but to diversify its economy. On the other hand, Cleveland (and Ohio) still had plenty of ties to the automotive industry, so the resurgence of all the Detroit automakers during the 1990's provided some economic momentum while Pittsburgh was still refocusing itself. The 2000's were markedly different, though, because attrition in the automotive industry hit Cleveland hard while Pittsburgh was finally getting its economic momentum back. Pittsburgh was never a big player in the automotive industry like Cleveland was, which is why its economy grew slower than Cleveland's during the 1990's, and faster than Cleveland's during the 2000's.
Whether it's demographics, educational attainment, economic connections, built environment, or even sports culture in spite of the Steelers/Browns rivalry, it's a stretch to say that Pittsburgh and Cleveland are "twin cities." And yeah, they were both industrial powerhouses, but even then, the types of industry were different as well.
This is absurd. Prior to realignment, Atlanta and Cincinnati were in the NL West, of all places, with cities such as San Francisco and San Diego. Cincinnati had a huge rivalry with Los Angeles for years - are those cities remotely in the same geographical area? And, if you're bemoaning Pittsburgh being taken from the NL East, Cleveland can make the same exact argument, since it was always in the AL East and Cleveland fans grew to cherish rivalries with Boston and New York, not current Midwest rivals like KC and Minnesota.
And in football, Pittsburgh's historical rival is Cleveland. Period. End of discussion.
As for the built environment in Pittsburgh resembling Washington, D.C. ... yea, not so much. If you're looking for Pittsburgh's twin, Cleveland may not be the best match, but another Ohio city definitely is. Pittsburgh and Cincinnati are very much mirror images of each other in many ways.
But again you have no evidence that Indy and Columbus' population growth is just a bunch of "dumbasses". Why does Pittsburgh's population decline translate into more smart people, but Columbus and Indy's growth does not?
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said that Columbus or Indianapolis were growing because dumb people were moving there. I was simply illustrating that a city isn't dying if it's becoming smarter and wealthier, regardless of population trends. Hell, Columbus and Indianapolis already have a built-in advantage over Pittsburgh because they're both state capitals and Pittsburgh is not. State capitals employ a lot of college-educated people and have more stable economies because you can't eliminate the state government, and relocation is unrealistic.
With that said, Pittsburgh is still outdoing both Columbus and Indianapolis in terms of the educational attainment of its 25- to 34-year-olds. Not that Columbus or Indianapolis are doing poorly, just that Pittsburgh is doing exceptionally well. About 35% of all 25- to 34-year-olds in the United States have college degrees. Columbus is about average (~34%); Indianapolis is slightly above average (~38%), and Pittsburgh is significantly above average (~48%). As long as a city is average or better in that regard, then it's likely to maintain its economic viability.
The real problem areas seem to be a lot of those places that relied on speculative construction to stimulate their economies. Their young populations are college-educated at a rate well below the national average. Case in point: California's "Inland Empire." It had explosive population growth during the 2000's, but most of it was people who weren't highly educated or highly skilled, and the fact that only ~16% of the younger population there has a college degree (less than half the national average) is proof.
This is absurd. Prior to realignment, Atlanta and Cincinnati were in the NL West and St. Louis and Chicago were in the NL East. Cincinnati had a huge rivalry with Los Angeles - are those cities remotely in the same geographical area? And, if you're bemoaning Pittsburgh being taken from the NL East, Cleveland can make the same exact argument, since it was in the AL East and Cleveland fans grew to cherish rivalries with Boston and New York.
It doesn't change the fact that Pirates fans considered their biggest rivals to be the Phillies and Mets, nor does it change the fact that the Penguins focus east either.
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Originally Posted by abr7rmj
And in football, Pittsburgh's historical rival is Cleveland. Period. End of discussion.
Did I ever say they weren't? No. And it doesn't change the fact that Pirates fans considered their biggest rivals to be the Phillies and Mets, nor does it change the fact that the Penguins focus east either. For that matter, it doesn't change the fact that many Big Ten fans don't believe that Penn State even belongs in the Big Ten.
Pittsburgh's cultural focus is, and has always been, primarily to the east. Ohio gets attention simply because it's pissing distance to the west, but very little mind is paid to anything west of Ohio (read: the whole rest of the Midwest).
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Originally Posted by abr7rmj
As for the built environment in Pittsburgh resembling Washington, D.C. ... yea, not so much. If you're looking for Pittsburgh's twin, you can again look to Ohio. Pittsburgh and Cincinnati are very much mirror images of each other.
Actually, the characteristics of Pittsburgh's built environment originated in Philadelphia and Baltimore, and moved west.
Lastly, why don't you ask the people who actually live in Pittsburgh which region of the country they're located in? Quite frankly, many Pittsburghers are sick and tired of people who've either barely or never been there, yet think they know what the city is all about, telling them what their identity is.
And if you're going to discredit the source, then here are some other sources you'll have to discredit:
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Originally Posted by airwair
I took this question to work with me today (I work on the South Side) and the answers were the same: Northeast.
This comes from 4 locals and 2 transplants (one from Brooklyn, the other from Michigan). In fact, 3 of the 4 locals looked at me like I was an idiot for even asking, as if the answer to the question should already be known.
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Originally Posted by JRTurner
It's rather amusing that although the people themselves are quite a bit alike, the PA-OH border is like an invisible barrier. My Wife for example would still root for Ohio Sate while I would go with PSU. She's softened on the Steelers (of course I'm all Steelers), but is still a Browns fan. She did root for the Pirates in '79, but there hasn't been anything to root for since. She's still an Indians fan at heart.
In all I'd say Pittsburgh is more Northeastern than Midwestern.
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Originally Posted by robrobrob
I think most Pittsburghers identify with the east coast. I think the reason for this is that a lot of us go to college in the east or we go to a Pennsylvania school with a lot of students from Philly, DC or New York. Basically, all of our contacts are on the east coast which means that we don't got to Cleveland, Columbus or Cincinnati as often as we do D.C. or Philly. Think about it, if you go to Penn State, for example, don't you know more people in Philly or D.C. than in Cleveland or Chicago?
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Originally Posted by barneyg
I've found that those who say Pittsburgh = Midwest rather than Pittsburgh = Northeast actually mean "East Coast" rather than Northeast. Pittsburgh is definitely not East Coast regardless of family/friend ties, but it's definitely Northeast.
I think people from Pittsburgh accurately differentiate between the East Coast and the Northeast. I think those in Pittsburgh who call Pittsburgh the East Coast (like NYC or Boston) are simply engaged in wishful thinking, and I think those in Philadelphia or NYC who call Pittsburgh Midwestern are likely arrogant, ignorant or both. West Coasters who call Pittsburgh East Coast are simply looking at the broader picture in comparison to themselves, whereas we're emphasizing the details.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
Most midwesterners don't consider Pittsburgh the midwest at all. Living in Champaign, Illinois in the 1970s, most, if not all, the Illinoisans I interacted with considered me an easterner. I had a boss who was always confusing Pittsburgh with Philadelphia. To her, they were both eastern cities. A friend from St. Louis, MO said he considered Carnegie-Mellon, but was a little intimidated by the east. Neither Champaign, IL or St. Louis are even that far into the midwest, nor *that* far from Pittsburgh (~ 500 and 700 miles, respectively).
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Originally Posted by fleetiebelle
No, not at all. I think people say that because Pittsburgh is a stone's throw from Ohio, but even the part of Ohio that Pittsburgh is close to isn't very Midwestern in my opinion. If you've ever been to Indianapolis or Omaha or St. Louis, the idea that Pittsburgh is Midwestern is laughable.
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Originally Posted by MN55
As someone who has lived his entire in Minnesota, I have never ever considered Pittsburgh a part of the Midwest before. Penn State playing in the Big 10 is the only thing that would make me even consider Pennsylvania to be a part of our region. Cleveland though is 100% Midwest.
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Originally Posted by BrianTH
Growing up in Michigan, we definitely thought of the Midwest as ending at the Ohio border. I also had no real feel for just how far Western PA was from the East Coast (or, in other words, no real clue just how wide the state of PA was).
Pittsburgh is in the interior Northeastern United States. Period. End of discussion.
This is absurd. Prior to realignment, Atlanta and Cincinnati were in the NL West, of all places, with cities such as San Francisco and San Diego. Cincinnati had a huge rivalry with Los Angeles for years - are those cities remotely in the same geographical area? And, if you're bemoaning Pittsburgh being taken from the NL East, Cleveland can make the same exact argument, since it was always in the AL East and Cleveland fans grew to cherish rivalries with Boston and New York, not current Midwest rivals like KC and Minnesota.
And in football, Pittsburgh's historical rival is Cleveland. Period. End of discussion.
As for the built environment in Pittsburgh resembling Washington, D.C. ... yea, not so much. If you're looking for Pittsburgh's twin, Cleveland may not be the best match, but another Ohio city definitely is. Pittsburgh and Cincinnati are very much mirror images of each other in many ways.
Come on man, please just stop. First you are comparing and contrasting cities by where they are in the MLB divisions. Second, you are trying to force the idea that a city must be like another city and have a twin. Is it possible for a city to be a complete unique city without having to resemble another city? Is this too difficult? A built environment like Washington? No. But it is different than Cleveland, and Pittsburgh and Cincinnati have similarities but also come with major differences. The architectural styles for instance are completely different.
Can I ask; do you travel to different cities? Do you walk around, photograph them, analyze their architecture and culture before coming onto a internet forum to school everybody how it is?
Also, for population loss. How many of you have a comparison of 1980s Pittsburgh and 2010 Pittsburgh that they can reference? I do. I know that just population loss doesn't equate to a "dying city". For Pittsburgh's case, the city has changed from a dirt overcrowded city to a much cleaner and nicer white collar city, but population shed was part of the change. Some people on this forum just blabber to hear themselves blabber.
Come on man, please just stop. First you are comparing and contrasting cities by where they are in the MLB divisions. Second, you are trying to force the idea that a city must be like another city and have a twin. Is it possible for a city to be a complete unique city without having to resemble another city? Is this too difficult? A built environment like Washington? No. But it is different than Cleveland, and Pittsburgh and Cincinnati have similarities but also come with major differences. The architectural styles for instance are completely different.
Can I ask; do you travel to different cities? Do you walk around, photograph them, analyze their architecture and culture before coming onto a internet forum to school everybody how it is?
Also, for population loss. How many of you have a comparison of 1980s Pittsburgh and 2010 Pittsburgh that they can reference? I do. I know that just population loss doesn't equate to a "dying city". For Pittsburgh's case, the city has changed from a dirt overcrowded city to a much cleaner and nicer white collar city, but population shed was part of the change. Some people on this forum just blabber to hear themselves blabber.
Hold the phone there, friend. Did you look at the post to which I was responding? You won't have to scroll very far back to find the Pittsburgh poster (Gnutella; post No. 98 on page 10) who hilariously brought MLB divisions into this. My response, which I believe echoes your viewpoint, was that it was a stretch and "absurd."
Perhaps you didn't read the full thread? Probably not, because you missed where I originally listed Pittsburgh second out of the four cities on the OP's list. I'm familiar with Pittsburgh and like the city just fine. I also never said Pittsburgh was similar to Cleveland - there are quite a few differences, despite the proximity. Every city has its own unique characteristics; there are quite a few differences between Minneapolis and St. Paul, and those cities touch each other. My point was to counter some Pittsburgh backers who desperately try to distance their city from Ohio while positioning it within "three hours of DC" or as one of the Boston-NYC-Philly group. It's the whole "We're better than Cleveland/Cincinnati/anywhere else in Ohio and we don't even want to be associated with them" mentality that, frankly, is pathetic.
Some of the "Pittsburgh is sooooo East Coast and has nothing to do with Ohio" arguments in this tread alone:
- Weather: It rained today in Pittsburgh and also Boston, while it didn't rain in Cleveland. Therefore, Pittsburgh and Boston are closely linked and Cleveland is distant.
- Driving distance from Pittsburgh: "DC is three hours" and Philly is 4.5 hours, so we're practically next-door neighbors. Well, in reality ... Cleveland is about 2 hours and you're closer to Columbus and Cincinnati than you are to Philadelphia.
- Pro sports divisions: Pirates fans hate the Mets and Phillies, and the Penguins are in a division with New York teams, so that proves we're East Coast like them. Again, not quite. Consider the NFL, where Dallas is in a eastern division with New York and Philly. Is Dallas also "East Coast"? The NHL is even more dysfunctional, putting Dallas in the Pacific Division with Los Angeles and San Jose and proving that sports divisions are awful indicators of geography.
Yea that's way off for Pittsburgh....Downtown Pittsburgh has a daytime population well over 100K and Oakland has probably another 50-60K workers.
Pittsburgh's Jobs are far more centralized within the core of the city than Cleveland's which suffers from suburban sprawl...
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More than 180,000 suburbanites flow into Downtown, Oakland and other city neighborhoods each day to work, boosting Pittsburgh's population by 41 percent, the fourth-highest proportional "day surge" among large cities in the nation.
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