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Like I said, I would take a non-downtown MLB park over a minor league downtown park all day long. 99% of fans drive (or take transit) to a game and leave and don't have a beer at a bar anyway, even in the most urban parks. I have been to games in 28 MLB parks.
Apparently, you haven't been to Wrigley Field. There are many bars fans go to within walking distance to the ball park. What you say describes KC but that doesn't speak for other cities with pro ball parks within walking distance. Not everyone drives to the game when some have the option to walk to one living next to it and then stop off at a pub after the game. You can do that in Chicago, Indy but not in KC. Big difference.
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I could be wrong, but I think KC has way more urban housing options than Indy.
How you figure that? Downtown Indy's urban population is larger than KC's so the occupancy rate is going to be higher in a more compact centralized area. I will say that KC has bigger urban neighborhoods outside it's downtown but they lack vibrancy compared to Indy's downtown area. Those pics show hardly anyone walking in those photos. Also nothing in KC is wall to wall dense like Indy's Monument Circle, Washignton, Meridian and Wholesale District corridors. Downtown Indy's core is more centralized and compact. I don't see that in KC.
Monument Circle is our version of London's Picadilly Circus. It's our very own Times Square without the massive video screens of course. The best looking round about in the country I'd say. A true city centre. http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...nt20Circle.jpg
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Yea Daytona has a pretty large speedway too. Big deal. KC's speedway has more to do around it than Indy's by a long shot and it only seats 100k. What in the world do speedways have to do with urban fabric and comparing major metro areas? Not a thing.
Since you bring up MLB ball park I bring up the Indy500 and IMS.
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I never said that, read my post again... and no Arrowhead should not be in downtown KC. There is no place to put it.
You stated that NFL stadium didn't belong in any city's downtown.
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Have you taken any urban planning classes?
I have taken architecture and have been to many places around the world to know the differences compared to someone who has never even left their country let alone a state. Traveling books, the class room setting, films and the internet will only tell you so much about a place but the experience (like tasting the food, the feel of the environment in person etc.)can only be complete when you get out there to know what's what. I've been to 3 different continents and plan to go to more.
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Downtown StL has has three large stadium venues downtown now for nearly 2 decades and a downtown ballpark for many decades. How long do you think it should take?
Well, that's in St Louis and not KC. I bet if next week if they we're to announce plans to implode both parks to be relocated downtown you would be all for it because it's in KC. You wouldn't say anything bad about that now would you?
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Tailgating is much more fun than crowding into some sports bar anyway.
You can also do that in Indy. You get the best of both worlds actually.
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But stadiums just don't have that much impact on having a vibrant downtown.
Stadiums are just one more place were people can go for entertainment just like shopping or seeing a movie. However, it's hard to deny that after the game there's very good chance that there will be many walking towards the pubs and restaurants. Nothing wrong with having that option. Thousands won't have an impact because all of them we're told to get in their cars and go away to the burbs. No street traffic vibrancy what so ever.
None of these cities has a population density to write home about. St. Louis is the most densely populated, followed by Omaha. Kansas City and Indianapolis have an extremely low density. Not that it matters; I was just kind of surprised.
How does indy have better shopping? I really don't know as I'm not a shopping snob and don't really follow that, but I would be curious to know what Indy has that KC doesn't. About the only thing I can think of that KC doesn't have is IKEA.
The Fashion Mall at Keystone is nicer than any mall in KC, that's all I know. Not to mention Indy obviously blows it out with downtown shopping.
In order to be completely unbiased, one would either have to have:
a) lived for a substantial amount of time in both
b) visited both without actually living there
c) not been to either at all
Living in one of the cities and then visiting the other doesn't get you the same feeling for both. A person needs to have a similar type of experience in both cities to have equal understanding of it.
Having said that and having been to neither, my list is:
St. Louis
Kansas City
.
Indy
(Omaha really doesn't belong on this list, unless its being compared to KC, KS)
None of these cities has a population density to write home about. St. Louis is the most densely populated, followed by Omaha. Kansas City and Indianapolis have an extremely low density. Not that it matters; I was just kind of surprised.
Well, density stats are very misleading when looking at KCMO because the city limits covers such a huge area (much of it is suburban or even rural in parts).
The original city limits of KCMO has a respectable density of 5-9k per square mile. It's not boston or even St Louis, but it's not as low as the city wide density stats would have you believe.
I would assume the same can be said about Indy which is in a similar situation.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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Originally Posted by kcmo
Well, density stats are very misleading when looking at KCMO because the city limits covers such a huge area (much of it is suburban or even rural in parts).
The original city limits of KCMO has a respectable density of 5-9k per square mile. It's not boston or even St Louis, but it's not as low as the city wide density stats would have you believe.
I would assume the same can be said about Indy which is in a similar situation.
The BEST indicator of downtown population "hustle and bustle" would be population density though, because when downtowns like Indy's are 5 or 6 square miles in area, you have to consider that size along with the resident population. Population density adjusts for size of downtown, making it an apples-to-apples comparison. Use this when comparing downtown residential populations instead of total population.
Also, even though cities like St. Louis are currently not as densely populated, STRUCTURALLY, they are as dense or moreso than just about any city in the country. At one point St. Louis had over 3X as many people living in the same area as its current population does. Population densities averaged over 20K ppsm in its heyday, unlike most cities today.
Something to consider when you think of density AND "urban feeling"!
This is the thing that is bugging me... not so much that you just randomly added in this odd measure (yes I see that you qualified it "as is" and not saying that this makes Indy "win" overall, but makes more of a great little package), and this is a fine thing to debate I suppose, but a lot of your criteria for it is pretty standard for cities. Restaurants, shopping, hotels... really? Yeah, all of these things (minus the aforementioned state capital) are within your walking distance in St. Louis, and probably a whole lot of cities. KC just posted some beautiful pics for the other side of Missouri as well.
Maybe I'm just use to it, but isn't it pretty normal to go out on the town after a game? (Minus the commuter family only type) Or after class?
I see what you're saying.
The things I listed are fairly standard for cities, indeed. What isn't standard is to have so many "city amenities/entertainment" in such a small area.
It is a double edged sword in this respect, for Indianapolis at least. A visitor to the city can "do" the city of Indy in a very small and compact area. Staying at a hotel downtown affords someone the ability to see/experience 95% of what the city has by strictly walking. Even the woefully deficient IndyGo bus system is effective for the downtown area. The only other points of interest outside the one square mile that I defined would be the Children's Museum (best there is, no debate about this), IMA, Indianapolis Zoo, and the Speedway.
But on the flip side, someone might not feel like they're getting their money's worth if they only hang out around that one square mile, because there is still 360+ square miles of the city that is not being "explored", as it were. But because a vast majority of the things worth coming for a visit are located in such a small area, there really isn't much of a reason to venture much further out.
Maybe I'm weird, but if I go to a city, I want to be able to see things that are associated with that city and not have to put in too much work to do so.
If I went to Kansas City, I would want to see Arrowhead stadium. Historic place (at least for NFL fans). But what would I do when I got to Arrowhead? Especially if it wasn't a game day? Go to Taco Bell? Subway? Walk the ITT Technical Institute Campus? Basically, I would show up, walk around, take some pictures and then leave. There is nothing else's around there, from what I can tell, that would keep me entertained after the initial viewing. I would then head... back downtown.
St. Louis and Indianapolis don't have that problem.
If I had to vote (which I won't because my vote would be based on a bias or what I "feel" would be the best) I would say St. Louis is better due to it's much smaller city boundaries and the fact that transportation options are ahead of Indianapolis.
Cities with multiple transportation options have a head start on those that don't.
...Believe it or not, Colts games have both tailgaiting AND bars all within walking distance of each other. Shocking right! So come to a Colts game and pick your poison, you have both to choose from.
I used to tailgate in the parking lot of the Slippery Noodle Inn... then stumble a quarter mile to the stadium. And if I didn't have tickets to the game, I could stumble to another bar and watch it from there.
Stumbling at Arrowhead gets you to... well... I-70?
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