Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Their suburban neighborhoods do not. Atlanta is comparable on the housing architecture of urban neighborhoods, but Denver is easily superior on the neighborhood design of suburban neighborhoods. There is no new Atlanta suburban development that beats Stapleton. And certainly no new Atlanta suburban development that beats Belmar or Reunion. Look at the parks in those neighborhoods and the trails and (in the case of the Stapleton and Belmar since Reuinion is very young) the retail. Having all that incorporated and mixed in with the residential is something Denver is doing a lot better than Atlanta. Having the new TND style residences with single family rear garage homes and huge neighborhood parks is something Denver is doing a lot better than Atlanta.
Stapleton is not a suburban development, it is located 100% within the city-county limits of Denver. Stapleton is a mixed-use/town center/new urbanist/faux neighborhood located on the former site of Denver's old airport of the same name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MantaRay
No, I saw the links and have been to the places myself on top of it. I even included a link of my own.
Yeah, unchecked sprawl, that makes for the BESTEST of cities! LOL
Denver has plenty of unchecked sprawl as well. Have you ever been to suburbs like Castle Rock, Glendale, Commerce City, Thornton, Parker, Centennial, Lone Tree, or Aurora?
Last edited by EastSideMKE; 06-22-2009 at 02:18 PM..
First of all, I just know we aren't going to get into a who treated blacks better historically, the Denver area or the Atlanta area contest. While blacks were free and living their lives around Denver, blacks were getting the crap beaten out of them in plantations and on farms around Atlanta. Sure Atlanta has grown into a black mecca in modern times, but my point in bringing up the black cowboys is that Denver DOES have history and character. So somebody arguing that Atlanta has this and Denver does not is presenting a bogus argument.
[/color]
1. As someone pointed out the Atlanta region did not have large plantations. They were down in Central and South Georgia. Atlanta was a railroad and trading town.
2. Not really. You brought that up to belittle the South because of it's history as so many City Data posters do then Rose Color your own regions history.
If you noticed I mentioned blacks being FREE in the Denver area. That puts my comments in a certain historical period. There were no slaves during the "civil rights" movement. Therefore what I was talking about had nothing to do with any "civil rights" movement or any movies made about them.
1. The great majority of blacks in Denver (especially the cowboys) did not move there until after slavery had ended. So that statement is mostly wrong.
But speaking of that time in history, Condoleeza Rice's dad moved their family AWAY from the South to Denver BECAUSE of the better treatment of blacks during that time period, specifically in 1967. First hand accounts of actual people are a little different from sensationalized movies. Since you mention the "civil rights" movement.
Yeah it's true blacks tended to move by millions to places that were promising to them. D.C. Newyork, L.A (Many of those people are now moving back South in huge numbers) So if Denver was such a paradise for blacks, why did so few (besides Conoleezas dad) move there? Why is it Denver never reached more than 11% black, 5% metro, and Colorado only 4% black? Why is it there are more blacks living in the city of Atlanta, or in suburban Dekalb county, than the whole state of Colorado? I mean C'mon. A city slightly smaller than Denver with more black people than all of Colorado? And then the County next to it (smaller in land size than most of Denver's countys) also has more black people than all of Colorado. In fact with over 1.6 million blacks metro Atlanta with twice the population of metro Denver has almost 8 times as many blacks as the whole state of Colorado. There's something almost spookly strange about Colorado's lack of black faces. Especially for an area that's suppose to have such a superior history of treatment of blacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Fanatic View Post
Plantations? There weren't any plantations around Atlanta, and the only farms in this part of the state were small family farms. The plantations and large farms were down in the southern part of the state, And the center of state law in that plantation state was Atlanta. I mean really, are we really going to debate whether the Denver vicinity or the Atlanta vicinity treated blacks better in the days of Lincoln and the days of Nixon? I mean everybody knows the answer to that. And again my original point was that whatever historical culture and character Atlanta has, Denver has plenty as well, so Atlanta doesn't blow Denver out of the water in that regard.
Wrong again. Atlanta did not become the capital of Georgia until well after slavery had ended. Milledgeville and Macon (both over a hundred miles south of Atlanta) were capitals during the last days of slavery.
In the days of Lincoln there were almost no blacks in Denver. In the days of Nixon Atlanta was seen as an island of progressiveness and black prosperity in a sea of black disparity. For instance many travelling black entertainers from all over the country loved to perform in Atlanta.
Last edited by Galounger; 06-22-2009 at 02:23 PM..
Or course Denver was more progressive than Condi Rice's hometown of Birmingham, AL. Hell, what city didn't have better race relations than Birmingham in the 60s?
Denver does have a lot of black history--especially considering the fact that it has had a historically low black population. However it hasn't always been the beacon of tolerance throughout its history. Up until the 70s, most blacks were confined largely to the Five Points area and the east side of Denver due to rampant and ubiquitous housing discrimination. Also in the 70s the Denver area had their own little George Wallace/Lester Maddox character in Greenwood Village mayor Freda Poundstone...
The 72-year-old Poundstone, one of the Republican Party's most prolific fundraisers, has been a controversial figure in Colorado since the 1970s. In the early part of that decade, Denver was in an uproar over court-mandated school busing to achieve racial integration; at the time, there were unincorporated suburbs on several sides of Denver. After Denver annexed those areas, the schools became part of the Denver school system. Worried at the prospect of having their children bused into inner-city neighborhoods, many parents fled deep into the suburbs. And Poundstone--then a little-known lobbyist who represented liquor-store owners and other business interests--seized on that fear to rally voters.
She campaigned tirelessly, pushing a constitutional amendment that would forever prohibit Denver from annexing land without a vote of the entire county from which it wanted to annex. "She went door-to-door and said the blacks are coming, but she used a different word," says one Greenwood Village political insider who crossed swords with Poundstone. (During the current controversy, Poundstone has refused to talk to the media, and she did not return repeated telephone calls from Westword.)
Not necessarily friendly.
I think MantaRay also forgets the fact that Atlanta boasts 2 Nobel Peace Prize winners, one of whom is synonymous with civil rights around the world. Besides that, Atlanta has always been one of the more progressive places in the South in regards to race relations. Civic leaders weren't necessarily open-minded--they were just pragmatic enough to know that racial oppression and strife is bad for business. Blacks were guaranteed the right to vote in Atlanta in 1948--17 years before the Voting Rights Act. Mayor Ivan Allen, Jr went before Congress in the early 60s to advocate on behalf of the need for Federal civil rights legislation. Also, Atlanta was one of the few American cities not to have experienced rioting immediately following the King assassination. Since then, Atlanta has one of the largest populations of black middle/upper class professionals in the country. It's not exactly utopia, but it's far ahead of many major US cities in regards to opportunities for African Americans.
Or course Denver was more progressive than Condi Rice's hometown of Birmingham, AL. Hell, what city didn't have better race relations than Birmingham in the 60s?
Denver does have a lot of black history--especially considering the fact that it has had a historically low black population. However it hasn't always been the beacon of tolerance throughout its history. Up until the 70s, most blacks were confined largely to the Five Points area and the east side of Denver due to rampant and ubiquitous housing discrimination. Also in the 70s the Denver area had their own little George Wallace/Lester Maddox character in Greenwood Village mayor Freda Poundstone...
I think MantaRay also forgets the fact that Atlanta boasts 2 Nobel Peace Prize winners, one of whom is synonymous with civil rights around the world. Besides that, Atlanta has always been one of the more progressive places in the South in regards to race relations. Civic leaders weren't necessarily open-minded--they were just pragmatic enough to know that racial oppression and strife is bad for business. Blacks were guaranteed the right to vote in Atlanta in 1948--17 years before the Voting Rights Act. Mayor Ivan Allen, Jr went before Congress in the early 60s to advocate on behalf of the need for Federal civil rights legislation. Also, Atlanta was one of the few American cities not to have experienced rioting immediately following the King assassination. Since then, Atlanta has one of the largest populations of black middle/upper class professionals in the country. It's not exactly utopia, but it's far ahead of many major US cities in regards to opportunities for African Americans.
Stapleton is not a suburban development, it is located 100% within the city-county limits of Denver. Stapleton is a mixed-use/town center/new urbanist/faux neighborhood located on the former site of Denver's old airport of the same name.
I know where Stapleton is. I walked through the streets and shopped in the shops. And Stapleton is not in the downtown vicinity. It IS within the city-county limits, but you've got to go THROUGH City Park and beyond (from downtown) before you get to Stapleton. Stapleton is some 4 miles or so from downtown. It's as far east of downtown as Belmar is southwest of downtown. So it's fair to compare it to suburban neighborhoods in other cities. It is mixed-use/town center, and THAT, and the specifics of how it incoporates THAT as well as the scale, is what makes it so much better that most of the suburban developments out there in America, certainly better than Atlanta's offerings. The incorporation and scale of park space, pedestrian trails, retail offerings, and street facades (created by the extensive use of rear facing garages), gives it a leg up on almost anything anywhere, certainly any newer subdivision developed in the Atlanta area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjacobeclark
Denver has plenty of unchecked sprawl as well. Have you ever been to suburbs like Castle Rock, Glendale, Commerce City, Thornton, Parker, Centennial, Lone Tree, or Aurora?
Yes. There's undeveloped open land between Castle Rock and Denver, Commerce City is near a major crossroads of interstates pretty close to the Denver core (not near the perimeter). Come to think of it, Thornton is well inside the perimeter as well. Aurora has probably THE best suburban town center development in Denver (and that's a pretty impressive feat) in Southlands. Know what those neighborhoods have in common? (except for locales like Castle Rock which have open space between it and the Denver perimeter suburbs)- They have pedestrian trails that you can use and even get to downtown Denver on. Atlanta has got NOTHING like that.
Furthermore, Denver single family home lots have a SMALLER footprint than Atlanta single family home lots on average. That all by itself demonstrates that Denver has a leg up and is indeed MUCH smarter in its growth vs. sprawl policies than Atlanta is. Furthermore, Denver's street layout, which is grid even well beyond the downtown area, which means a more even and efficient dispersement of traffic on the roads, is further proof of Denver's superiority over Atlanta in terms of growth vs. sprawl policies. In Atlanta you tend to end up on the same roads as everybody else when you're going somewhere. In Denver, the grid pattern gives you options and helps to mitigate the traffic issues that comes with big city suburban life. So even WITHIN the topic of sprawl, Denver comes out superior to Atlanta. By far.
I know where Stapleton is. I walked through the streets and shopped in the shops. And Stapleton is not in the downtown vicinity. It IS within the city-county limits, but you've got to go THROUGH City Park and beyond (from downtown) before you get to Stapleton. Stapleton is some 4 miles or so from downtown. It's as far east of downtown as Belmar is southwest of downtown. So it's fair to compare it to suburban neighborhoods in other cities. It is mixed-use/town center, and THAT, and the specifics of how it incoporates THAT as well as the scale, is what makes it so much better that most of the suburban developments out there in America, certainly better than Atlanta's offerings. The incorporation and scale of park space, pedestrian trails, retail offerings, and street facades (created by the extensive use of rear facing garages), gives it a leg up on almost anything anywhere, certainly any newer subdivision developed in the Atlanta area.
Yes. There's undeveloped open land between Castle Rock and Denver, Commerce City is near a major crossroads of interstates pretty close to the Denver core (not near the perimeter). Come to think of it, Thornton is well inside the perimeter as well. Aurora has probably THE best suburban town center development in Denver (and that's a pretty impressive feat) in Southlands. Know what those neighborhoods have in common? (except for locales like Castle Rock which have open space between it and the Denver perimeter suburbs)- They have pedestrian trails that you can use and even get to downtown Denver on. Atlanta has got NOTHING like that.
Furthermore, Denver single family home lots have a SMALLER footprint than Atlanta single family home lots on average. That all by itself demonstrates that Denver has a leg up and is indeed MUCH smarter in its growth vs. sprawl policies than Atlanta is. Furthermore, Denver's street layout, which is grid even well beyond the downtown area, which means a more even and efficient dispersement of traffic on the roads, is further proof of Denver's superiority over Atlanta in terms of growth vs. sprawl policies. In Atlanta you tend to end up on the same roads as everybody else when you're going somewhere. In Denver, the grid pattern gives you options and helps to mitigate the traffic issues that comes with big city suburban life. So even WITHIN the topic of sprawl, Denver comes out superior to Atlanta. By far.
It's all just another opinion unless you cite this information with resources...and you didn't - you never do.
2. Not really. You brought that up to belittle the South because of it's history as so many City Data posters do then Rose Color your own regions history.
Thanks for trying to read my mind. Let me advise against that however as a profession, considering the ENORMOUS error in the conclusion. I brought it up for the exact reason I SAID I brought it up- to show that Denver DOES have historical character and how that historical character developed. It developed by being more welcoming than Atlanta was, and that is simply the fact of the matter. And I was raised in the South. I don't think I'm rose coloring my own region's history, that being the South. That's the thing about trying to read minds. Some THINK they have that ability but in reality they don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galounger
So if Denver was such a paradise for blacks, why did so few (besides Conoleezas dad) move there? Why is it Denver never reached more than 11% black, 5% metro, and Colorado only 4% black?
In order to move, people had to either already be fairly well financed, or there had to be a wealth of job expansion for people to move right into jobs. During that time frame, the industrial job expansion pretty much happened more northward that westward, for example in the Chicago area. That's why the black poplulation in Chicago during that time SURGED. Denver was never a strong national industrial/manufacturing location like Chicago was. Denver was more suited for middle class blacks trying to move somewhere different than for lower economic class blacks trying to get lifelong high wage jobs like those offered in the Midwest. But all that is beside the point, which is that Denver has as much historical character and culture as Atlanta. And black cowboys are a BIG part of that historical culture, a part which Atlanta cannot lay claim to. The bottom line is that somebody said Atlanta has Denver beat because it has historical character and culture, and that statement was in error. Denver more than competes with Atlanta in historical character and culture. But feel free to continue to distract from that point if you wish.
It's all just another opinion unless you cite this information with resources...and you didn't - you never do.
I don't have to cite resources to know where Stapleton is, or the types of homes Stapleton has, or the parks Stapleton has, or the single family home footprints that Denver tends to have versus Atlanta. Thinking people can do online searches of these areas and find out for themselves and can look at online maps to find out the topography and footprint and proximities themselves.
But for people who for whatever reason find themselves incapable of doing so, here is a link for Stapleton. (http://live.stapletondenver.com/live/overview - broken link)
Denver does have a lot of black history--especially considering the fact that it has had a historically low black population.
Thanks for acknowledging that. That was my bottom line point. Denver has plenty of historical character. And I'm glad it didn't take me having to provide a link to it for you to know that, as apparently it has for certain others. Thanks for being a good example that lazy people, wherever they are, can look to.
Yes. There's undeveloped open land between Castle Rock and Denver, Commerce City is near a major crossroads of interstates pretty close to the Denver core (not near the perimeter). Come to think of it, Thornton is well inside the perimeter as well. Aurora has probably THE best suburban town center development in Denver (and that's a pretty impressive feat) in Southlands. Know what those neighborhoods have in common? (except for locales like Castle Rock which have open space between it and the Denver perimeter suburbs)- They have pedestrian trails that you can use and even get to downtown Denver on. Atlanta has got NOTHING like that.
I'm afraid Atlanta DOES have something like that...again, you are just showing your general lack of knowledge on the city of Atlanta. Here are some of Atlanta's trails...
Part of Dekalb County is included in the city of Atlanta - notice how the Stone Mountain Trail connects with the Freedom Park Trail, and connects the city to the suburb of Stone Mountain:
http://www.pathfoundation.org/images/trails/DeKalbCountyMap07.gif (broken link)
PATH Foundation (http://www.pathfoundation.org/index.cfm?event=showADKTrail - broken link)
http://www.pathfoundation.org/images/trails/CityofAtlantaMap07.gif (broken link)
PATH Foundation (http://www.pathfoundation.org/index.cfm?event=showADKTrail - broken link)
Arabia Mountain and Rockdale River Trails...beginning in Lithonia, about 5 miles outside the city of Atlanta:
http://www.pathfoundation.org/images/trails/ArabiaRockdale.gif (broken link)
PATH Foundation (http://www.pathfoundation.org/index.cfm?event=showArabia - broken link)
Silver Comet Trail...begins in Smyrna, about 5 miles outside the city of Atlanta:
http://www.pathfoundation.org/images/trails/scMap07.gif (broken link)
PATH Foundation (http://www.pathfoundation.org/index.cfm?event=showSilverComet - broken link)
Future and Current Beltline Trails:
Atlanta Beltline > Transit and Trails (http://www.beltline.org/Implementation/TransitandTrails/tabid/1805/Default.aspx - broken link)
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
