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Well... You guys nailed Phoenix's problems, but Denver has a lot of less obvious problems that may push millennials out after they settle down and have a family just as fast as Denver pulled them in.
Downtown Denver is nice, there's no denying it, and it definitely has an edge over Phoenix in that regard. But you pay a pretty penny to live in downtown Denver, well outside the price range of a financially responsible average wage earner in Denver.
Looking at the suburbs though, Phoenix is the clear winner. Denver's suburbs are really crappy, at least for the price you pay. There are whole swaths of Denver that are pretty run down and lame, yet they are still higher priced than decent neighborhoods in Phoenix. North Denver is just as bland as any Midwestern exurb.
Schools are by and large pretty bad in Denver. Higher ed in Colorado is pretty meh. Recently the traffic has gotten significantly worse, bad enough to compare to any of the bigger US cities. There's a brown haze that's noticeable over the skyline.
I think a lot of recent movers to Denver will start reconsidering after 2-3 years, after they figure out they don't use the outdoors as much as they thought, the places they do use are rather crowded, and all those little niceties that Denver lacks start to become more and more important.
Denver is at the junction of many railways, highways, and air routes............it is much more central.
Denver is also a much more youthful city. let's face it, when you think of Phoenix the first thing that comes to mind is cactus, endless sprawl, and retirees and all of which for good reason.
Our water supply isnt stellar, but I wouldnt say its running out per se. AZ does a SUPERB job on storing reserves, and dictating who gets what and when. If the drought continues, AZ's water supply looks the best out of all the SW cities, by a long shot.
I've wondered about this and looked into it a little bit, but I'm no expert. Still, water makes me wonder about the future of Phoenix.
My understanding was that the state as a whole could go under water restrictions from Lake Meade if the lake goes under a certain level, which it seems likely (certain?) to do sometime in the next couple of years. The restrictions are supposed to hit farmers first, which is a good thing for homeowners, I guess, but has some downsides. Also, the 'drought', at least in terms of the Colorado River, is perhaps a bit of a misnomer, since water was initially allocated between states after an exceptionally wet period and the river does not run that high normally. And the underground aquifers are being depleted. They were disproportionately charged during the last ice age, when there were mammoths here and a different climate, and all we are doing now is taking water out, except that we are also charging them I guess somewhat, with excess water during good times and even treated wastewater. We'll have to see how that goes.
I agree that Phoenix does a good job of conserving water, but more could and should be done. It's not likely that everywhere from Black Canyon City to Tucson will be one solid block of houses someday, as some long-range projections have it. There isn't water for that. So at some point development slows down or stops in Phoenix, barring a game-changer, like a pipeline from a desalinization plant or something like that. I mean, the Colorado River does not reach the sea anymore, except for a token amount of water which was allowed to reach the delta last year for the first time in many decades. There is no more water left to give. And Los Angeles and Las Vegas are still thirsty.
Downtown Denver is nice, there's no denying it, and it definitely has an edge over Phoenix in that regard. But you pay a pretty penny to live in downtown Denver, well outside the price range of a financially responsible average wage earner in Denver.
Looking at the suburbs though, Phoenix is the clear winner. Denver's suburbs are really crappy, at least for the price you pay. There are whole swaths of Denver that are pretty run down and lame, yet they are still higher priced than decent neighborhoods in Phoenix. North Denver is just as bland as any Midwestern exurb.
What are you talking about? Denver has very nice suburbs. No place is immune to having less than great areas, but I've never heard anyone try to write off Denver's suburbs as crappy. They are boring and bland, however. I also agree that you pay way too much. Phoenix suburbs are definitely a better deal.
Quote:
Schools are by and large pretty bad in Denver. Higher ed in Colorado is pretty meh. Recently the traffic has gotten significantly worse, bad enough to compare to any of the bigger US cities. There's a brown haze that's noticeable over the skyline.
DPS aren't that great, but it's very rare that city school systems are stellar. I don't know of may large cities with great city school districts. However, districts in the suburbs such as Cherry Creek School District and Douglas County School district are ranked pretty well.
The traffic is not looking great, but Denver is definitely not the worst. The brown haze isn't just a Denver issue. And it's not even always there either.
Denver is at the junction of many railways, highways, and air routes............it is much more central.
Denver is also a much more youthful city. let's face it, when you think of Phoenix the first thing that comes to mind is cactus, endless sprawl, and retirees and all of which for good reason.
If this is what you think of when you think of Phoenix, then you really do not know the Phoenix metro at all.
What are you talking about? Denver has very nice suburbs. No place is immune to having less than great areas, but I've never heard anyone try to write off Denver's suburbs as crappy. They are boring and bland, however. I also agree that you pay way too much. Phoenix suburbs are definitely a better deal.
Oh, I know Highlands Ranch and Cherry hills and some of the ones east on 6 are really nice, but it seems like Denver has a worse ratio of meh, rather unattractive, a bit run down suburbs to nice neighborhoods. And they come at a premium price. On the flip side there aren't many real awful ghettos or avoid at all cost places in Denver.
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Originally Posted by Mezter
DPS aren't that great, but it's very rare that city school systems are stellar. I don't know of may large cities with great city school districts. However, districts in the suburbs such as Cherry Creek School District and Douglas County School district are ranked pretty well.
The traffic is not looking great, but Denver is definitely not the worst. The brown haze isn't just a Denver issue. And it's not even always there either.
I'm kinda unfamiliar with them, but I've heard that by and large CO Springs has by significantly better schools on average compared to Denver city wide. Having bad schools isn't unique only to Denver though.
Traffic wise though Phoenix would have to win compared to Denver.
I've wondered about this and looked into it a little bit, but I'm no expert. Still, water makes me wonder about the future of Phoenix.
My understanding was that the state as a whole could go under water restrictions from Lake Meade if the lake goes under a certain level, which it seems likely (certain?) to do sometime in the next couple of years. The restrictions are supposed to hit farmers first, which is a good thing for homeowners, I guess, but has some downsides. Also, the 'drought', at least in terms of the Colorado River, is perhaps a bit of a misnomer, since water was initially allocated between states after an exceptionally wet period and the river does not run that high normally. And the underground aquifers are being depleted. They were disproportionately charged during the last ice age, when there were mammoths here and a different climate, and all we are doing now is taking water out, except that we are also charging them I guess somewhat, with excess water during good times and even treated wastewater. We'll have to see how that goes.
I agree that Phoenix does a good job of conserving water, but more could and should be done. It's not likely that everywhere from Black Canyon City to Tucson will be one solid block of houses someday, as some long-range projections have it. There isn't water for that. So at some point development slows down or stops in Phoenix, barring a game-changer, like a pipeline from a desalinization plant or something like that. I mean, the Colorado River does not reach the sea anymore, except for a token amount of water which was allowed to reach the delta last year for the first time in many decades. There is no more water left to give. And Los Angeles and Las Vegas are still thirsty.
I too have been trying to educate myself on the West's water issue. Arizona has done a good job managing its water supply, but the desert, because of its reasonable cost of living (for now!) and easy weather (maybe consistent is a better word here? No natural disasters, etc.) continues to grow. Arizona is a large state with lots of land, but it is a desert which means not much water is needed in its natural state. However, as it continues to grow an unnatural demand will be put on its resources and that, in my opinion, is where the difficulty will come. No one can predict when it may or even if it will happen but last year we heard whispers of possible water restrictions on farmers which didn't happen. We seem to be getting good snow in the mountains so far this winter and that, coupled with El Nino, may help improve the situation and keep those "restriction" whispers at bay for the time being.
It is an issue many in the Phoenix area don't discuss, but it's also one we cannot ignore. Time will tell.
In answer to the OP's question it's really a toss up to me as to which city has the brighter future. Also, I guess the question is a bit too general for me to pinpoint any long-term advantages of either.
Last edited by goolsbyjazz; 01-12-2016 at 09:38 AM..
Reason: content edited
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