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my brother lives in Ghent and works in Downtown Norfolk. He finds the idea that Norfolk is more urban than Richmond hysterically funny. They aren't even close by his lights, it's Richmond all the way. I honestly don't see how anyone who knows both cities could ever rate Norfolk more urban. It'd be like rating Richmond better for beaches based on Texas Beach and Pony Pasture...
my brother lives in Ghent and works in Downtown Norfolk. He finds the idea that Norfolk is more urban than Richmond hysterically funny. They aren't even close by his lights, it's Richmond all the way. I honestly don't see how anyone who knows both cities could ever rate Norfolk more urban. It'd be like rating Richmond better for beaches based on Texas Beach and Pony Pasture...
These are people that are familiar with both cities making the argument though. Statistics appear to bear it out and we haven't seen any concrete evidence from anyone, nothing in detail, as to the differences between the downtown areas of both cities. Norfolk changed a lot due to urban renewal when that was a thing in the seventies and I assume that Richmond did not and all of that prewar architecture is still in place? This is what I am curious about.
Plus when I see stuff like Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site Richmond is 24% less densely populated than Norfolk[/url], I often wonder where people are coming from with the argument, because it suggests that if Richmond is denser Downtown then the rest of the city is thinner. Norfolk has had a larger population, consistently, since at least the nineties.
And what are areas that are similar to Ghent like in Richmond? Are those more densely populated, or less densely populated?
These are people that are familiar with both cities making the argument though. Statistics appear to bear it out and we haven't seen any concrete evidence from anyone, nothing in detail, as to the differences between the downtown areas of both cities. Norfolk changed a lot due to urban renewal when that was a thing in the seventies and I assume that Richmond did not and all of that prewar architecture is still in place? This is what I am curious about.
Plus when I see stuff like Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site, I often wonder where people are coming from with the argument, because it suggests that if Richmond is denser Downtown then the rest of the city is thinner. Norfolk has had a larger population, consistently, since at least the nineties.
And what are areas that are similar to Ghent like in Richmond? Are those more densely populated, or less densely populated?
Urbanity and population density are not the same thing. You can pack a lot of people in a suburban apartment complex.
Let's take a look at walkscore.
Walkscore lists 10 Richmond neighborhoods with a score of 80 or better. Those neighborhoods have a combined 38,414 people.
If we expand out criteria to neighborhoods with a walkscore of 70 or better, Richmond gets 16 neighborhoods with a combined 47,675 people. Norfolk gets 8 neighborhoods with a total of 28,237. Richmond is far more urban. Norfolk has apartment complex density, not urbanity.
Norfolk's West Ocean View neighborhood has population density over 8kpp/sq mi, and a pop between 4-5k. It looks like this:
If we expand out criteria to neighborhoods with a walkscore of 70 or better, Richmond gets 16 neighborhoods with a combined 47,675 people. Norfolk gets 8 neighborhoods with a total of 28,237. Richmond is far more urban. Norfolk has apartment complex density, not urbanity.
Norfolk's West Ocean View neighborhood has population density over 8kpp/sq mi, and a pop between 4-5k. It looks like this:
Are those neighborhoods downtown? Because what I'm hearing about is how Richmond's downtown density in comparison to Norfolk. Or are you referring to the city in general?
I think Norfolk may eventually reach that density downtown once they build over the projects downtown. The projects are going to be replaced and all of that land reclaimed. It could easily grow downtown by 33% to 50% over time.
These are people that are familiar with both cities making the argument though. Statistics appear to bear it out and we haven't seen any concrete evidence from anyone, nothing in detail, as to the differences between the downtown areas of both cities. Norfolk changed a lot due to urban renewal when that was a thing in the seventies and I assume that Richmond did not and all of that prewar architecture is still in place? This is what I am curious about.
Plus when I see stuff like Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site, I often wonder where people are coming from with the argument, because it suggests that if Richmond is denser Downtown then the rest of the city is thinner. Norfolk has had a larger population, consistently, since at least the nineties.
And what are areas that are similar to Ghent like in Richmond? Are those more densely populated, or less densely populated?
Nobody familiar with both cities argues that Norfolk is the more urban, not a single person. And if you're confused, you've either willfully or unintentionally missed several points I've hit on within this thread, and over the years...
To keep it very brief, Norfolk's inner core, or "heart of the city", is geographically smaller than the like in Richmond by more than half, and is demonstrably more suburban in built form. Through your own words, you aren't familiar with Richmond, so you have nothing to stand on as contest. The images that I, or gladhands, or anybody else can post aren't enough for you; neither is data; I'd just say go to Richmond and find out yourself. As I always say, this doesn't mean you wouldn't find Norfolk still more your preference. But it's not contestable as to which city is more urban...
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328
Are those neighborhoods downtown? Because what I'm hearing about is how Richmond's downtown density in comparison to Norfolk. Or are you referring to the city in general?
I think Norfolk may eventually reach that density downtown once they build over the projects downtown. The projects are going to be replaced and all of that land reclaimed. It could easily grow downtown by 33% to 50% over time.
The conversation included comparing both downtowns, but the original point isn't centered on downtowns...
Your skepticism can be eliminated by getting to know Richmond. Make a point to visit at least once every other month for the next year...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands
Urbanity and population density are not the same thing. You can pack a lot of people in a suburban apartment complex.
Let's take a look at walkscore.
Walkscore lists 10 Richmond neighborhoods with a score of 80 or better. Those neighborhoods have a combined 38,414 people.
If we expand out criteria to neighborhoods with a walkscore of 70 or better, Richmond gets 16 neighborhoods with a combined 47,675 people. Norfolk gets 8 neighborhoods with a total of 28,237. Richmond is far more urban. Norfolk has apartment complex density, not urbanity.
Norfolk's West Ocean View neighborhood has population density over 8kpp/sq mi, and a pop between 4-5k. It looks like this:
It's not debatable. I haven't known a single person ever who has been familiar to both cities that called Norfolk larger or more urban. Last week I just met yet another person, from here (young lady born and raised in Norfolk), who spent four years at VCU and raved about how Granby is "a block of activity" compared to different stretches of Richmond, how there is no Shockoe Bottom, or Carytown, or Jackson Ward, down here. Yet another person, among a pretty significant amount now, who are from here but acknowledge with no question that Richmond is the larger, more urban city...
I think Norfolk may eventually reach that density downtown once they build over the projects downtown. The projects are going to be replaced and all of that land reclaimed. It could easily grow downtown by 33% to 50% over time.
I agree. The development going on in Norfolk is really good. There are ongoing discussions to include Richmond in one megaregion. Today, if both metro areas were combined, the region would be over 3 million people.
I agree. The development going on in Norfolk is really good. There are ongoing discussions to include Richmond in one megaregion. Today, if both metro areas were combined, the region would be over 3 million people.
Nobody familiar with both cities argues that Norfolk is the more urban, not a single person. And if you're confused, you've either willfully or unintentionally missed several points I've hit on within this thread, and over the years...
To keep it very brief, Norfolk's inner core, or "heart of the city", is geographically smaller than the like in Richmond by more than half, and is demonstrably more suburban in built form. Through your own words, you aren't familiar with Richmond, so you have nothing to stand on as contest. The images that I, or gladhands, or anybody else can post aren't enough for you; neither is data; I'd just say go to Richmond and find out yourself. As I always say, this doesn't mean you wouldn't find Norfolk still more your preference. But it's not contestable as to which city is more urban...
The conversation included comparing both downtowns, but the original point isn't centered on downtowns...
Your skepticism can be eliminated by getting to know Richmond. Make a point to visit at least once every other month for the next year...
It's not debatable. I haven't known a single person ever who has been familiar to both cities that called Norfolk larger or more urban. Last week I just met yet another person, from here (young lady born and raised in Norfolk), who spent four years at VCU and raved about how Granby is "a block of activity" compared to different stretches of Richmond, how there is no Shockoe Bottom, or Carytown, or Jackson Ward, down here. Yet another person, among a pretty significant amount now, who are from here but acknowledge with no question that Richmond is the larger, more urban city...
Great post. So Norfolk is decent by Hampton Roads standards but it sucks by American standards. Norfolk needs to tear down it's projects, build medium to high density and build vertically and maybe it can get closer to Richmond. Norfolk says it will do this but it has a long term plan to do it, so things are on the horizon. Plus Norfolk has to complete with the likes of Virginia Beach and Chesapeake.
In the interim it is what it is. If you don't want to go to Richmond there are other downtowns in the area and other dense neighborhoods. But, as spread out as Hampton Roads is, doubt you'll find anything close to Richmond or what you'll find headed up North.
That will eventually happen. It always does when two cities are as close as Richmond and Norfolk are. And it would be good for Virginia.
It's possible they will eventually become a CSA, but I think it will probably mostly depend on if the OMB revises the criteria for CSAs in the near future or keeps them as is for the time being. If Norfolk were on the peninsula, HR and Richmond probably would've already been a CSA. The geography of HR seems to be the primary factor in determining when and if it will happen.
I just want to add to the continually growing list of natives on Southside Tidewater I've met who recognize Richmond as the center of music within The Commonwealth....
I had a conversation with a 30-year old guy yesterday who has lived here since he was two. He plays drums and has played in different bands, and gave me some great insight into the local music traditions...
A decade-plus ago, the local scene was centered around The Oceanfront, he said there used to be great energy and a bunch of venues and clubs there. He said he loved it, and somewhere around 8-10 years ago, the gravity started shifting towards Richmond. He's played in Richmond twice and described the scene as "unreal" and "awesome"....
The Oceanfront still has some appeal, I would say it is still the starting point for a lot of musicians here, to get booked on The Strip or Downtown Norfolk. There is still a pretty good scene here, but even before I moved here, I knew it wasn't comparable to Richmond...
The only reason this was a question is because a former rt poster misled people, stating that the various national artists that are widely known made Hampton Roads a stronger music culture. Some of my best friends in Richmond were Tidewater natives, musicians who transplanted to Richmond, who spoke to the contrary two and three years ago. I lived in Richmond and visited here, as well as NoVa, the "eye test" told me it wasn't even close, and everybody involved on the music circuit in Virginia (rock, hip hop, pop style, EDM/electronica, everything) knows that Richmond is the center of the culture here...
Just another tidbit that isn't widely known because Virginia cities don't have a large national profile. There are some big brands nationally known from Hampton Roads, but by and large the Richmond scene is larger, more creative, much more dynamic!
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