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Of course St Louis would be #1. 310k core city for a msa of 3 million.
Stats don't always give the full picture. St Louis isnt on Chicago level but its not a boring place unless you want it to be. I wouldn't consider any of the cities listed as boring.
You don't say?
So you mean all of these lists and threads ranking all of these cities different ways could be tailor made based on methodology to boost one place or another?
You do realize, don't you, that Minneapolis and St. Paul are for all intents and purposes one city? You can literally stand with one foot in Minneapolis and the other in St. Paul. That is hardly "drawing from the region". The border is artificial and it's really one core city of approximately 725,000 people.
True, but Detroit also shares a direct border with Windsor, Royal Oak, Dearborn, etc-or Cleveland with Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, etc. I'm not saying that Saint Paul can't be considered associated, but, it's clearly advantageous to MPLS to add Saint Paul to it, and not add neighboring inner ring places for any of the other cities. Of course, the validity of the numbers is inherently questionable anyways, so I suppose that's a moot point. As per when I think about a city for things to do, yes, I think about the city, but from a visitor's perspective, since we're talking attractions, I also consider the entire region, at very least within a 60 minute drive.
Quality of Attractions, Etc, should also be considered, as really should neighboring attractions (for example, Denver has regional proximity to the Rocky Mountains). Pittsburgh isn't very much a part of the Midwest, per se, but it has mountain hiking in the Alleghenies within 60 minutes that none of these places can offer (though STL, CLE and MPLS can contend somewhat.)
So you mean all of these lists and threads ranking all of these cities different ways could be tailor made based on methodology to boost one place or another?
Not necessarily tailor made but yes.
I think this is a good thread with all good intentions. But sometimes the city vs city thing doesn't give a good comparison like the crime thing. Look at the detail of things and be happy and dont take things too serious.
True, but Detroit also shares a direct border with Windsor, Royal Oak, Dearborn, etc-or Cleveland with Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, etc. I'm not saying that Saint Paul can't be considered associated, but, it's clearly advantageous to MPLS to add Saint Paul to it, and not add neighboring inner ring places for any of the other cities. Of course, the validity of the numbers is inherently questionable anyways, so I suppose that's a moot point. As per when I think about a city for things to do, yes, I think about the city, but from a visitor's perspective, since we're talking attractions, I also consider the entire region, at very least within a 60 minute drive.
Huh? Detroit and Windsor are separated by water; Minneapolis and St. Paul are not. Royal Oak, Dearborn, Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, etc... are all suburbs that wouldn't exist if it weren't for their core city. Minneapolis and St. Paul are considered core / central cities that literally border one another and are also surrounded by several suburbs - 300+. That said, you can't talk about Minneapolis and conveniently forget about St. Paul or vice versa
I think one of the major flaws in looking just at city alone, is that what defines a city is not necessarily directly correlated by only it's city limits. It's city population can both over, and under exaggerate. For example, the fact that Minneapolis is allowed to add Saint Paul, it only stands to reason that the other cities should be able to draw from their respective regions as well. As per total attractions listed, I think that city perception can end up having a lot to do with what the total volume of the list is (I mean, outside perception). I'm not saying there isn't some truth in that, but it doesn't tell the story. That being said, I would say that somewhere like Greater Detroit has just as much to do or see (if not more) as does the Twin Cities, with the one exception on that being in recreational infrastructure/scenery. For Detroit, you have Ann Arbor, Windsor, Dearborn, etc. that are all very much a part of the region. The Twin Cities has nothing similar to do with either of these. Another thing that must be pointed out, is that the way that attractions are starred as attractions, is hardly consistent. For example, does anyone believe that Saint Petersburg, Russia, offers visitors twice as much to do and see, as does New York City? Not a knock on Saint Pete as a city, but really now. I hope the T.A. ratings is being used more as a one shot tool than as an absolute ruling.
Last point to make... Things to do depends on the person that is interested. Are they Historic/Cultural Attractions? Theme Park/Entertainment? Natural? Chicago clearly has the most to do and see for tourists within it's city limits out of this group, and I don't know that there's that much differentiation between the rest of them. At the same time though, the Chicago area probably lags behind at least Cleveland and Minneapolis and Pittsburgh when it comes to outdoor recreation.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with your larger point, but you picked on the wrong city to make it. You are talking St. Petersburg Russia here, not Florida. It's a cultural juggernaut with one of the most fascinating, influential and event-filled histories of any city in the world and a massive historic center that is larger than Manhattan (most likely the largest in the world). So it's not as unfathomable as you might think.
Saint Petersburg is an amazing city, yes, I agree it really does offer a lot. I'm just saying that to say it offers twice as much is a stretch, because even if it had that many more sites, simply the fact that NYC has the type of downtown it does, and it's natural setting
Also, puts it on at least equal footing. I'd say they may be on a similar level, with Saint Pete being more dynamic historically, than being equal culturally, but NYC being more dynamic in other ways. Certainly not half the offerings in NYC though. There are other cities where I believe it it is over or under exaggerated as well. MPLS and SP are on opposite sides of the mighty MO as well. If you took attractions within the CSA, that might be a more consistent, albeit still unreliable, form of comparison.
Yimby: you know that's a stretch though. Windsor is about a 10 (perhaps less minute drive from downtown Detroit. They (the downtowns) can be seen from one another. Downtown MPLS is about a 20 minute drive from Downtown Saint Paul. I'm not saying one can't include MPLS and SP together, and their combined amenities are to be lauded, but doing that just for the Twin Cities, and not for anywhere else, seems at least mildly disingenuous IMO.
Yimby: you know that's a stretch though. Windsor is about a 10 (perhaps less minute drive from downtown Detroit. They (the downtowns) can be seen from one another. Downtown MPLS is about a 20 minute drive from Downtown Saint Paul. I'm not saying one can't include MPLS and SP together, and their combined amenities are to be lauded, but doing that just for the Twin Cities, and not for anywhere else, seems at least mildly disingenuous IMO.
It's awesome that Minneapolis and Detroit have multiple substantial urban cores/a strong secondary city in their region. I believe that's something that hurts Columbus. Our next largest "city" is really the suburb of Dublin or far-flung Newark both of which have fewer than 50,000 people.
Just thought I'd break it down by nightlife and then restaurants.
This is the top night life list.
Chicago 557
Saint Louis 143
Milwaukee 135
Minneapolis 128
Columbus 125
Pittsburgh 114
Indianapolis 91
Cleveland 88
Cincinnati 86
Detroit 75
Louisville 57
Restaurants
Chicago 7711
Saint Louis 2316
Indianapolis 1878
Columbus 1851
Pittsburgh 1695
Cincinnati 1637
Cleveland 1506
Louisville 1435
Minneapolis 1395
Milwaukee 1238
Detroit 974
I will write Detroit is a sleeping giant. When it wakes up it will be a monster.
It's awesome that Minneapolis and Detroit have multiple substantial urban cores/a strong secondary city in their region. I believe that's something that hurts Columbus. Our next largest "city" is really the suburb of Dublin or far-flung Newark both of which have fewer than 50,000 people.
I think part of that is honestly just that Columbus is a newer, smaller area overall, compared to that. Columbus has a center, but then you're right, it's sort of just suburbs beyond that. Is an area, with similar population size and characteristics though, better shaped to have a consistent network of suburbs, a singularly strong urban center, or hypothetically, multiple urban centers that aren't quite as strong, but when combined are greater than their sum of parts?
Would be more useful for metro areas, not city boundaries - cities that haven't annexed a whole lot of their suburbs have much less land area. To make more meaningful comparisons, metro areas need to be used. The sprawl cities sometimes have 3 or 4 times the land area of the older cities, even though their urban cores are often less dense and have less to do, it will appear the opposite if city boundaries are used for lists like this.
Last edited by _Buster; 05-25-2017 at 12:57 PM..
Reason: Those debates have already been had
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