Which do you think is more urban, Philadelphia or Queens? (state, better)
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NOT counting Center City. Because Queen's equivalent of that would be Manhattan. I'm focused more so on the residential neighborhoods here.
I personally think Queens wins this. Queens has neighborhoods that reach way higher densities, plus I find Queens to have higher structural density on average.
I’d think that including Center City isn’t that bad of a comparison since it’s arguable that Long Island City could count as a CBD even though it’s a weaker one. That’d just be part of the trade-off as would the idea that Queens has other secondary CBDs with downtown Flushing and potentially downtown Jamaica.
I’m actually curious as to how much office space is in Long Island City compared to Center City. I’m guessing it’ll be a blowout in Center City’s favor, but it’d be interesting to see how big that difference is.
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Do we also exclude Long Island City, Flushing and Jamaica, which are significant CBDs for Queens that also have high residential populations? Does University City get counted for Philly?
Minus just Center City at its smallest definition and keeping all of the areas above, Queens is more urban. Queens is about 10,000 ppsm more dense than Philly, and in an area 25 sq mi smaller. Structurally, Queens has better rapid transit (more lines, both above and underground), more mid/high rises, more bridges/tunnels and suburban areas that are tighter than those in NE and NW Philly. Queens also has two major airports within borough limits, a larger wildlife refuge, CitiField, the Billie Jean King Tennis Complex, and the Rockaways. While Philly has four major sports stadiums in one complex, an airport, John Heinz wildlife refuge, Pennypack Park, Wissahickon Valley Park, and Fairmount Park (with all three parks being quite massive), you could argue that Queens packs more of a punch given its smaller size.
The only area of urbanity I find primarily residential Philly to surpass Queens in (again excluding Center City, which is a big exclusion) is in street width, which lends a more intimate feel for both pedestrians and car passengers. It also creates better street "canyons", despite Queens having taller residential buildings. South Philly, to me, is the epitome of this feel, though Philly has plenty of these sections all throughout the city.
But this is a difficult comparison, as Philly's most urban area also has a very large residential population. Chicago outside of its primary CBD is more urban residentially than Queens, but San Francisco, Boston and DC are relatively tiny compared to Queens and have some of their most dense neighborhoods right next to their downtowns. Not including residential areas outside of city limits (Cambridge, Arlington, Alexandria, Daly City, etc.), these cities might also not be as urban as Queens if sustained size is a factor, unless we just use a standard 109 sq mile area for comparison, which opens up a new can of worms as to what gets added and what doesn't.
I’d think that including Center City isn’t that bad of a comparison since it’s arguable that Long Island City could count as a CBD even though it’s a weaker one. That’d just be part of the trade-off as would the idea that Queens has other secondary CBDs with downtown Flushing and potentially downtown Jamaica.
I’m actually curious as to how much office space is in Long Island City compared to Center City. I’m guessing it’ll be a blowout in Center City’s favor, but it’d be interesting to see how big that difference is.
I’m interested too. I’m going to try to see if I can find anything later when I have some time but for now FWIW I believe Downtown Flushing is still a larger CBD than LIC, and the 4th largest in NYC behind Downtown Brooklyn. LIC definitely is growing rapidly both as a business district and as a residential neighborhood. Historically it has never really been either of those.
I also agree that keeping in Center City makes it more even/interesting though I see the point in wanting to mainly compare the more “normal” neighborhoods.
Do we also exclude Long Island City, Flushing and Jamaica, which are significant CBDs for Queens that also have high residential populations? Does University City get counted for Philly?
Minus just Center City at its smallest definition and keeping all of the areas above, Queens is more urban. Queens is about 10,000 ppsm more dense than Philly, and in an area 25 sq mi smaller. Structurally, Queens has better rapid transit (more lines, both above and underground), more mid/high rises, more bridges/tunnels and suburban areas that are tighter than those in NE and NW Philly. Queens also has two major airports within borough limits, a larger wildlife refuge, CitiField, the Billie Jean King Tennis Complex, and the Rockaways. While Philly has four major sports stadiums in one complex, an airport, John Heinz wildlife refuge, Pennypack Park, Wissahickon Valley Park, and Fairmount Park (with all three parks being quite massive), you could argue that Queens packs more of a punch given its smaller size.
The only area of urbanity I find primarily residential Philly to surpass Queens in (again excluding Center City, which is a big exclusion) is in street width, which lends a more intimate feel for both pedestrians and car passengers. It also creates better street "canyons", despite Queens having taller residential buildings. South Philly, to me, is the epitome of this feel, though Philly has plenty of these sections all throughout the city.
But this is a difficult comparison, as Philly's most urban area also has a very large residential population. Chicago outside of its primary CBD is more urban residentially than Queens, but San Francisco, Boston and DC are relatively tiny compared to Queens and have some of their most dense neighborhoods right next to their downtowns. Not including residential areas outside of city limits (Cambridge, Arlington, Alexandria, Daly City, etc.), these cities might also not be as urban as Queens if sustained size is a factor, unless we just use a standard 109 sq mile area for comparison, which opens up a new can of worms as to what gets added and what doesn't.
Do you think the small streets are entirely a positive? I know it's a positive for the streets to not be super wide, but Philly's streets just seem like a pain in the ass sometimes. I wonder if those streets reduce the amount of bus routes the city can have.
According to this, Long Island City has 12mn Sq of office space and has Center City is 45mn.
Philly at its peak had a pop density of 15k per square mile. Still only 75% as dense as Queens right now. Queens is definitely built up more.
If you go by population density, then Queens is more urban and "built up" than Chicago and San Francisco as well. Density is only one of many factors of the subjective determination of being "more urban".
If you go by population density, then Queens is more urban and "built up" than Chicago and San Francisco as well. Density is only one of many factors of the subjective determination of being "more urban".
If comparing residential areas, I think Queens is more urban than both SF and especially Chicago.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995
Do you think the small streets are entirely a positive? I know it's a positive for the streets to not be super wide, but Philly's streets just seem like a pain in the ass sometimes. I wonder if those streets reduce the amount of bus routes the city can have.
Not entirely a positive. As a driver, they can be a massive inconvenience, especially when it comes to parking and inclement weather (and some ungodly combination of the two). I'm sure some bus routes are restricted, although I've seen buses squeeze their way through some streets I didn't think possible.
As a pedestrian, cyclist and urbanist, though, I prefer Philly's small streets to New York's wider ones. They're more pleasant to walk, as you don't feel small. New York has its grand avenues and streets, and they do provide a sense of awe when you're walking, especially in Manhattan with the skyscrapers, but you can also feel "threatened" or overwhelmed, if that makes sense. Most streets are at least three lanes wide in one direction, with the larger avenues being 5 or more with large sidewalks. Both street styles are "claustrophobic" in a sense, but NYC achieves it through sheer density of people, cars and building height, while Philly does more so through a more human scaled version. Even residential, outer-borough NYC streets are less "inviting" then central core Philly ones, from a structural standpoint imo. You primarily get that "inviting" feeling from the masses of people walking out and about.
Not to say that NYC doesn't have narrow, walkable streets or Philly wide, bustling avenues, because they obviously both do. NYC has narrow, walkable streets in spades. I just feel I can walk miles in South Philly, the River Wards, and West Philly without encountering a huge local, traffic artery with high-rises lined up the way I do in Manhattan, Brooklyn and the Bronx. It's probably the only "nitpick" I have against NYC from an urban perspective, although it's impossible for it to be any other way then it is. And to be clear, I'm excluding the interstates and expressways (BQE, Major Deegan, I-95, Vine St, etc) from this comparison. Both cities have fairly ugly, aging ones that cut through major neighborhoods.
Not entirely a positive. As a driver, they can be a massive inconvenience, especially when it comes to parking and inclement weather (and some ungodly combination of the two). I'm sure some bus routes are restricted, although I've seen buses squeeze their way through some streets I didn't think possible.
As a pedestrian, cyclist and urbanist, though, I prefer Philly's small streets to New York's wider ones. They're more pleasant to walk, as you don't feel small. New York has its grand avenues and streets, and they do provide a sense of awe when you're walking, especially in Manhattan with the skyscrapers, but you can also feel "threatened" or overwhelmed, if that makes sense. Most streets are at least three lanes wide in one direction, with the larger avenues being 5 or more with large sidewalks. Both street styles are "claustrophobic" in a sense, but NYC achieves it through sheer density of people, cars and building height, while Philly does more so through a more human scaled version. Even residential, outer-borough NYC streets are less "inviting" then central core Philly ones, from a structural standpoint imo. You primarily get that "inviting" feeling from the masses of people walking out and about.
Not to say that NYC doesn't have narrow, walkable streets or Philly wide, bustling avenues, because they obviously both do. NYC has narrow, walkable streets in spades. I just feel I can walk miles in South Philly, the River Wards, and West Philly without encountering a huge local, traffic artery with high-rises lined up the way I do in Manhattan, Brooklyn and the Bronx. It's probably the only "nitpick" I have against NYC from an urban perspective, although it's impossible for it to be any other way then it is. And to be clear, I'm excluding the interstates and expressways (BQE, Major Deegan, I-95, Vine St, etc) from this comparison. Both cities have fairly ugly, aging ones that cut through major neighborhoods.
Well some neighborhoods in NYC do well in terms of having small streets Bushwick doesn't seem to have any streets wider than one lane in each direction, and most of the streets are one way, single lane streets. I think that's part of the appeal of the neighborhood.
Because of the streets being like that though, taking the shuttle that replaces the L train sometimes is a nightmare!
The neighboring neigborhoods like Maspeth and Ridgewood seem to be like this too. Little to no wide streets.
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