Which city has the more substantial urban core: Cincinnati or Pittsburgh? (places, America)
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People have said that a lot in this thread, but I don't get it. Oakland seems clearly bigger and more densely built to me, with lots of highrises and midrises. Are people just talking about older neighborhoods when they say this? Caveat I know Oakland well but I'm using streetview to look at OTR. It does have 4 and 5 story tenement buildings, which are rare in Pgh. But I don't see how it compares to Oakland in urban built environment and density. They are different types of neighborhoods which makes it a little hard to compare though.
You would have to explore OTR by foot to understand. Cincinnati does not have a Oakland type neighborhood. OTR is dense, urban, and tightly packed for quite a few blocks. The alley ways are packed with rowhouses similar to Homewood back in the day. Imagine Fermosa Way rowhouses adjacent to every main street for 10 blocks or so without vacant lots. OTR is truly a gem.
I cannot put my finger on it but something is missing in downtown Cincinnati. I cannot figure it out. One thing I noticed is the riverfront trail in downtown is really not connected to the river. It is gated off and you cannot touch the water. You can only admire the Ohio river from a distance. Flooding may be the issue.
You would have to explore OTR by foot to understand. Cincinnati does not have a Oakland type neighborhood. OTR is dense, urban, and tightly packed for quite a few blocks. The alley ways are packed with rowhouses similar to Homewood back in the day. Imagine Fermosa Way rowhouses adjacent to every main street for 10 blocks or so without vacant lots. OTR is truly a gem.
I cannot put my finger on it but something is missing in downtown Cincinnati. I cannot figure it out. One thing I noticed is the riverfront trail in downtown is really not connected to the river. It is gated off and you cannot touch the water. You can only admire the Ohio river from a distance. Flooding may be the issue.
It doesn't blend well with the rest of the city IMO. Culturally and geographically, it's quite divided from the rest of entire metro. The development of it has been a bit commercialized, rather than occurring naturally maybe? But it's like no matter how it develops, you think it should be more than it is, but it's still Cincinnati and the Midwest. If that makes sense. Idk how to explain it either. Like that style neighborhood with the mindset of the people in the Northeast would give it a different vibe. But it's still Midwest and it's still Cincinnati if that makes sense.
Either way, it's more impressive in person. A night out there and seeing the crowded sidewalks, people eating late dinners at sidewalk tables, people bar hopping all over, food carts on the corners, etc. makes it feel like you're not in Cincinnati...till you realize you are and it feels off because of that maybe.
Pittsburgh has a nice downtown that is very walkable, transit oriented with the underground light rail, very dense and compact. The only knock on Pittsburgh is their football team.... Cincinnati too for that matter.
You would have to explore OTR by foot to understand. Cincinnati does not have a Oakland type neighborhood. OTR is dense, urban, and tightly packed for quite a few blocks. The alley ways are packed with rowhouses similar to Homewood back in the day. Imagine Fermosa Way rowhouses adjacent to every main street for 10 blocks or so without vacant lots. OTR is truly a gem.
I cannot put my finger on it but something is missing in downtown Cincinnati. I cannot figure it out. One thing I noticed is the riverfront trail in downtown is really not connected to the river. It is gated off and you cannot touch the water. You can only admire the Ohio river from a distance. Flooding may be the issue.
Oh yeah I agree OTR looks like a cool neighborhood, and Pittsburgh doesn't have anything that's completely similar. (Although E. Carson street in South Side flats could be thought of as an elongated version of it) But what I was asking is, about the people saying Pgh has no other neighborhoods that are 'as built out' or 'no answer for' OTR. I just wonder what they mean by that
I'm guessing they mean that it doesn't have a mostlyhistoric neighborhood with similar building type. and maybe they are talking about restaurant/bar activity too, since OTR seems like it might be more of a nightlife area than Oakland. Also I think people are placing a lot more importance on the residential zero setback street wall than I would. I think that does add to the urban feel, but I also think a 10 foot setback, like you see in residential sections of Oakland doesn't detract much from urban feel, especially if its for buildings over 7 stories like most in Oakland. and Oakland business districts generally have zero setbacks.
Out of curiosity I checked out the population densities of those two areas, and they both contain the densest tracts within their cities-
looks like OTR Cincy has two census tracts, with 14K and 16K per sq mile (16 being densest in Cincy).
Oakland Pittsburgh has three census tracts, with 20K, 25K, and 32K per sq mile (32 being densest in Pgh).
Oh yeah I agree OTR looks like a cool neighborhood, and Pittsburgh doesn't have anything that's completely similar. (Although E. Carson street in South Side flats could be thought of as an elongated version of it) But what I was asking is, about the people saying Pgh has no other neighborhoods that are 'as built out' or 'no answer for' OTR. I just wonder what they mean by that
I'm guessing they mean that it doesn't have a mostlyhistoric neighborhood with similar building type. and maybe they are talking about restaurant/bar activity too, since OTR seems like it might be more of a nightlife area than Oakland. Also I think people are placing a lot more importance on the residential zero setback street wall than I would. I think that does add to the urban feel, but I also think a 10 foot setback, like you see in residential sections of Oakland doesn't detract much from urban feel, especially if its for buildings over 7 stories like most in Oakland. and Oakland business districts generally have zero setbacks.
What sets Over-The-Rhine apart from anywhere in Pittsburgh of a similar age is mainly the height. A lot of the building styles look similar to Pittsburgh, but they're often four-story old apartment houses, rather than 2-3 story rowhouses. There's nowhere like this in Pittsburgh. The combination of the added height and the zero-setback gives it a more intense, closed-in feel that is rare outside of NYC.
Oakland has a very intense "downtown" area, but the residential blocks feel more akin to a slightly less intensely built part of Cinci like the West End or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster
Out of curiosity I checked out the population densities of those two areas, and they both contain the densest tracts within their cities-
looks like OTR Cincy has two census tracts, with 14K and 16K per sq mile (16 being densest in Cincy).
Oakland Pittsburgh has three census tracts, with 20K, 25K, and 32K per sq mile (32 being densest in Pgh).
OTR was mostly abandoned around 1990 or so, and a very bad neighborhood. It's rapidly changing now, but there's still a lot of empty buildings keeping the population density lower. Not to mention outright vacant lots (which are getting infilled, but not universally yet).
Agreed. I love Pittsburgh dearly, but we don't have an Over-the-Rhine equivalent.
I do, too, but Pittsburgh's Squirrel Hill and Shadyside neighborhoods can at least rival---if not surpass---Hyde Park in Cincinnati.
I wonder if Cincinnati people consider Hyde Park to be part of their urban core? I'm guessing not. I know Shadyside would be for Pittsburgh, but kind of doubt most people would consider Squirrel Hill to be, just because of its less central location.
Hyde Park has a nice little upscale shopping area (Hyde Park Square), however most of the neighborhood is really spread out, and the only other business district area, I think they really screwed up by making them strip malls with large parking lots in front, and mostly the standard type chain stores/restaurants. It's pretty suburban and auto-centric.
Shadyside and Squirrel Hill both have more in terms of business districts, and they're a lot more urban and walkable. You probably don't need to be told, but look at the walk scores and transit scores ( I know these don't always tell the full story, but in this case they pretty much do).
From all the posts so far, it seems that downtown Cincinnati + OTR constitute a more substantial core than downtown Pittsburgh + strip district, but when considering the cities as a whole, Pittsburgh is clearly the more urban city. Pittsburgh seems to have MANY lively linear strips along single streets; Cincinnati has much fewer of these, but nowhere in Pittsburgh outside of downtown provides the vibrant pedestrian experience **on a grid** (at least 8 blocks by 8 blocks) that OTR in Cincinnati does.
From all the posts so far, it seems that downtown Cincinnati + OTR constitute a more substantial core than downtown Pittsburgh + strip district, but when considering the cities as a whole, Pittsburgh is clearly the more urban city. Pittsburgh seems to have MANY lively linear strips along single streets; Cincinnati has much fewer of these, but nowhere in Pittsburgh outside of downtown provides the vibrant pedestrian experience **on a grid** (at least 8 blocks by 8 blocks) that OTR in Cincinnati does.
As a Pittsburgher who loves Cincinnati I'd agree with this assessment.
I wonder if Cincinnati people consider Hyde Park to be part of their urban core? I'm guessing not. I know Shadyside would be for Pittsburgh, but kind of doubt most people would consider Squirrel Hill to be, just because of its less central location.
Yeah, Shadyside is part of the urban core of Pittsburgh because it pretty seamlessly merges with walkable parts of North Oakland, East Liberty, Bloomfield, etc. Squirrel Hill's business district is off by itself, doing its own thing.
Hyde Park is definitely way too far out and isolated to be an urban core area for Cinci I would think. It's more isolated than Squirrel Hill, and a lot lower-density, both in terms of its business district being much smaller and the lack of much multi-family.
Northside isn't much closer to Downtown Cincinnati, but it's much more 'old urban" because it developed decades earlier (the core was its own municipality before Cinci annexed it in 1873, meaning it's older than hilltop neighborhoods right next to Over-The-Rhine. Nice business district, albeit rather small. Nice old urban housing. Still less dense than somewhere like Bloomfield in Pittsburgh though - and as far out from the urban core as say Brookline would be in Pittsburgh.
From all the posts so far, it seems that downtown Cincinnati + OTR constitute a more substantial core than downtown Pittsburgh + strip district, but when considering the cities as a whole, Pittsburgh is clearly the more urban city. Pittsburgh seems to have MANY lively linear strips along single streets; Cincinnati has much fewer of these, but nowhere in Pittsburgh outside of downtown provides the vibrant pedestrian experience **on a grid** (at least 8 blocks by 8 blocks) that OTR in Cincinnati does.
The one caveat I would give is parts of South Side Flats are eight blocks deep measuring from river to the hillside, meaning it does provide for a vibrant pedestrian experience on a grid eight blocks deep by eight blocks long.
But yeah, Pittsburgh is more about linear business districts. Butler Street and East Carson Street both have 20+ blocks of continual 19th century storefronts packed with businesses. Not too many places off the East Coast except Chicago have that.
Cincy has a bigger direct walk-able core. Cincy CBD, OTR and Covington/Newport is more substantial than Pittsburgh downtown and Strip/ immediate south and north sides. However the broader core of Pittsburgh is much more substantial then Cincy. Hyde Park is more of a streetcar suburban feel than Squirrel Hill which especially in the business district feels pretty urban.
I live in Covington and frequently walk across the Ohio River bridges into the the CBD and OTR and for many people the prime complete spot for urban living in Cincy is in this core basin. For Pittsburgh, the urban areas outside of downtown offer a competing spot for the top tier urban living in the region.
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