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Is like to point out places like Vegas, Atlanta, Phoenix and Detroit are inflated because the recession was so bad there, while other cities like Boston or Chicago didn’t really get nearly the unemployment rate those others did so there was less room to grow.
Help me out here. How are those cities numbers inflated because of the recession? I'm not quite understanding.
The mulitipolarism of the region contribute to better traffic flow patterns. In DFW you have people commuting to work in all directions instead of to just one central businesss district.
The bolded part is true and the reason why DFW traffic has gotten a lot worse over the past 10 years (outside of the fast growth). Traffic south of 30 is different than the rest. Traffic gets worse heading to Dallas on that side of the metro. It's bad heading into Fort Worth but only in Tarrant County. Meanwhile, most freeways heading to the northside from ANY part of the metro are now jammed. Then because the employment centers are so spread out in the northside, traffic has multiple congestion chokepoints all over. Add to that the fact that it's mostly tollways where the largest companies are, and you're essentially paying to sit in traffic.
DFW is really not that unique when it comes to how it's employment centers are spread out. Most major metro areas have multiple suburban employment centers. It's just that Central Dallas has a less % of jobs for the metro than some of its peer cities. This causes less congestion into Central Dallas, but that doesn't mean you won't find that elsewhere. It's getting considerably worse all over DFW, but the northside specifically.
Here are the results for January 2019 since January 2000 and January 2008:
January 2000-January 2019 (total)
+1,269,700 - New York
+973,500 - Dallas/Fort Worth
+869,000 - Houston
+719,000 - Los Angeles
+678,600 - Washington DC
+601,500 - Phoenix
+584,500 - Miami
+541,800 - Atlanta
+537,600 - Riverside/San Bernardino
+428,700 - Orlando
+426,000 - Seattle
+410,300 - Austin
+383,500 - San Francisco/Oakland
+340,500 - Las Vegas
+323,200 - Denver
+323,100 - San Antonio
+310,000 - San Diego
+303,900 - Nashville
+297,000 - Charlotte
+278,000 - Boston
+248,000 - Chicago
+244,900 - Portland
+234,400 - Minneapolis/St. Paul
+229,400 - Philadelphia
+227,600 - Tampa
+226,900 - Sacramento
+200,800 - Raleigh
+196,600 - Salt Lake City
+195,800 - Baltimore
+182,600 - Columbus
+177,000 - Indianapolis
+156,700 - Jacksonville
+131,700 - Kansas City
+122,900 - San Jose
+108,900 - Cincinnati
+107,700 - Oklahoma City
+105,000 - Richmond
+76,800 - Virginia Beach/Norfolk
+74,400 - St. Louis
+63,400 - Louisville
-42,300 - New Orleans
-58,800 - Cleveland
-147,400 - Detroit
January 2000-January 2019 (percent)
+62.41% - Austin
+55.35% - Riverside/San Bernardino
+50.33% - Las Vegas
+48.26% - Orlando
+46.98% - Raleigh
+43.95% - San Antonio
+42.27% - Nashville
+39.22% - Phoenix
+39.07% - Houston
+36.73% - Salt Lake City
+35.63% - Dallas/Fort Worth
+32.60% - Charlotte
+29.05% - Sacramento
+28.49% - Jacksonville
+27.67% - Denver
+27.55% - Miami
+26.49% - San Diego
+26.17% - Seattle
+26.12% - Washington DC
+25.68% - Portland
+24.12% - Atlanta
+20.29% - Oklahoma City
+20.24% - Tampa
+20.20% - Indianapolis
+20.06% - Columbus
+18.58% - San Francisco/Oakland
+18.55% - Richmond
+16.23% - Baltimore
+15.02% - New York
+13.76% - Kansas City
+13.44% - Minneapolis/St. Paul
+13.29% - Los Angeles
+12.25% - Tucson
+12.22% - San Jose
+11.53% - Grand Rapids
+11.35% - Boston
+10.98% - Virginia Beach/Norfolk
+10.97% - Cincinnati
+10.58% - Louisville
+8.54% - Philadelphia
-5.28% - Cleveland
-6.79% - New Orleans
-6.83% - Detroit
January 2008-January 2019 (total)
+941,100 - New York
+698,000 - Dallas/Fort Worth
+498,100 - Houston
+436,000 - Los Angeles
+395,900 - San Francisco/Oakland
+348,300 - Atlanta
+299,500 - Miami
+299,500 - Washington DC
+296,400 - Seattle
+288,700 - Austin
+265,500 - Boston
+259,800 - Denver
+240,600 - Riverside/San Bernardino
+239,300 - Orlando
+236,700 - Nashville
+234,200 - Phoenix
+220,800 - Chicago
+212,600 - San Antonio
+201.400 - San Jose
+190,600 - Charlotte
+174,600 - San Diego
+163,100 - Portland
+162,200 - Minneapolis/St. Paul
+144,900 - Tampa
+143,900 - Columbus
+137,800 - Philadelphia
+118,100 - Salt Lake City
+117,900 - Indianapolis
+110,000 - Raleigh
+104,900 - Baltimore
+103,700 - Sacramento
+103,600 - Detroit
+97,300 - Las Vegas
+91,600 - Kansas City
+84,400 - Grand Rapids
+83,100 - Jacksonville
+70,300 - Cincinnati
+65,000 - Oklahoma City
+59,400 - Louisville
+55,300 - Richmond
+47,900 - New Orleans
+43,500 - Pittsburgh
+39,300 - St. Louis
+24,200 - Buffalo
+22,000 - Virginia Beach/Norfolk
+17,600 - Rochester
+16,600 - Providence
+15,900 - Milwaukee
+14,100 - Memphis
+9,000 - Hartford
+37.06% - Austin
+30.11% - Nashville
+25.14% - San Antonio
+23.21% - Dallas/Fort Worth
+22.20% - Orlando
+21.73% - San Jose
+21.23% - Raleigh
+21.10% - Denver
+19.29% - San Francisco/Oakland
+19.24% - Salt Lake City
+19.19% - Houston
+18.97% - Riverside/San Bernardino
+18.73% - Charlotte
+17.53% - Grand Rapids
+16.87% - Seattle
+15.75% - Portland
+15.17% - Columbus
+14.28% - Atlanta
+13.37% - San Diego
+13.32% - Jacksonville
+12.60% - Indianapolis
+12.45% - Miami
+12.32% - Phoenix
+12.00% - Tampa
+11.47% - Sacramento
+11.34% - Oklahoma City
+10.79% - Boston
+10.72% - New York
+10.58% - Las Vegas
+10.06% - Washington DC
+9.85% - Louisville
+9.19% - Kansas City
+8.99% - New Orleans
+8.98% - Richmond
+8.93% - Minneapolis/St. Paul
+8.09% - Baltimore
+7.66% - Los Angeles
+6.82% - Cincinnati
+5.43% - Detroit
+4.96% - Philadelphia
+4.94% - Chicago
+3.86% - Pittsburgh
+3.45% - Rochester
+3.11% - Buffalo
+2.95% - Providence
+2.94% - St. Louis
+2.92% - Virginia Beach/Norfolk
+2.23% - Memphis
+1.88% - Milwaukee
+1.59% - Hartford
(NOTE: The U.S. capital and state capitals are highlighted in PURPLE.)
The original post on this topic featured a chart detailing the job growth in every major MSA since the nadir of the last recession. These two charts detail the job growth in every major MSA since the turn of the century and the approximate peak before the last recession, respectively.
Help me out here. How are those cities numbers inflated because of the recession? I'm not quite understanding.
Because in 2010 Detroit say had 16% unemployment and Boston had 8% unemployment. So a large portion of Detroit’s job growth was driven by not new jobs but people getting their jobs back after 2008-2010.
Help me out here. How are those cities numbers inflated because of the recession? I'm not quite understanding.
I understand what the person is saying. Say a typical housing market in Atlanta, per-recession, accounted for 400,000 jobs directly or indirectly tied to the sector. The recession hit particularly hard meant that housing was not selling and construction fell of, etc, resulting in a lost 100,000 jobs from the sector at the peak of the recession. Hence, one would expect that when the housing market returned to normal, post recession, that those 100,000 jobs would return as the housing market normalized. Therefore, if one looks at job growth starting from the recovery.....it would pick up the 100,000 jobs gained from the market returning back to normal.....which is deceptive in that its really not NEW employment growth, but the return of old jobs.
As that relates to Detroit, however, its not simply rebounding of old jobs. In the case of Detroit....JOBS DIED!!! Many jobs lost are NEVER coming back. Hence, no rebound effect. Yes, some of the job creation number is auto related jobs coming back and tertiary employment related, however, a good chunk of the growth is actually NEW JOB CREATION in different sectors of the economy, like high tech, health care, business services, construction, etc. There are major construction project going on in the Detroit area and or are about ready to get started, such as the new Gordie Howe bridge linking Detroit and Canada. Right now there is a shortage of skilled trades people and plenty of new jobs being created in construction related businesses.
When Jobs die.....there is no rebound. Jobs created after jobs have died are actually valid new job growth.
The bolded part is true and the reason why DFW traffic has gotten a lot worse over the past 10 years (outside of the fast growth). Traffic south of 30 is different than the rest. Traffic gets worse heading to Dallas on that side of the metro. It's bad heading into Fort Worth but only in Tarrant County. Meanwhile, most freeways heading to the northside from ANY part of the metro are now jammed. Then because the employment centers are so spread out in the northside, traffic has multiple congestion chokepoints all over. Add to that the fact that it's mostly tollways where the largest companies are, and you're essentially paying to sit in traffic.
DFW is really not that unique when it comes to how it's employment centers are spread out. Most major metro areas have multiple suburban employment centers. It's just that Central Dallas has a less % of jobs for the metro than some of its peer cities. This causes less congestion into Central Dallas, but that doesn't mean you won't find that elsewhere. It's getting considerably worse all over DFW, but the northside specifically.
I actually agree with the poster who mentioned the decentralization of jobs in DFW. I live around downtown and work in North Dallas and in Fort Worth. So many jobs are spread from Dallas, to Fort Worth, Las Colinas, Plano, Frisco, and Arlington that it certainly helps to spread the congestion.
Contrast this with Atlanta and Austin where everyone is rushing to arrive at one epicenter at once.
But, there's also a lot of merit to our street size in DFW. Rarely are roads too small. Even our secondary and tertiary streets are 3 lanes in one direction through neighborhoods (Royal, NW hwy, Walnut Hill, etc x1000).
The street size (as a whole) was surprising to me when I first came here and I can see it helping.
When it comes to job or population growth, it's also important to consider the organic total growth of the US as a whole. The US population has grown about 16%. So i would say that any city significantly under that figure is either seeing a very difficult temporary situation or sliding backwards.
It's simply, if I get 3% raises each year, yet inflation is 5%, I'm poorer every year.
The original post on this topic featured a chart detailing the job growth in every major MSA since the nadir of the last recession. These two charts detail the job growth in every major MSA since the turn of the century and the approximate peak before the last recession, respectively.
In my previous post I focused on the recession but only compiled statistics for the top 25 metro economies.
Here is the same post plus the months and years each of those metros reached their pre recession peaks, the months and years of their lowest job counts during the recession, and the month and year that they regained their losses( and remained stable).
Pre Recession Jobs High:
New York Dec 2007: 9,058,400
Los Angeles Dec 2007: 5,849,900
Chicago Jun 2007: 4,612,900
Dallas Jun 2008: 3,066,200
Washington DC Jun 2008: 3,047,400
Philadelphia Dec 2007: 2,849,000
Houston Dec 2008: 2,668,000
Boston Jun 2008: 2,525,100
Atlanta Dec 2007: 2,484,900
Miami Dec 2007: 2,463,200
San Francisco Nov 2007: 2,095,400
Detroit Jun 2007: 1,993,800
Phoenix Dec 2007: 1,947,700
Minneapolis Jun 2007: 1,873,500
Seattle Jun 2008: 1,794,200
St Louis Dec 2007 1,369,400
San Diego Dec 2007: 1,336,300
Baltimore Dec 2007: 1,332,700
Riverside Dec 2007: 1,300,800
Denver Jun 2007: 1,271,800
Pittsburgh Jun 2008: 1,165,400
Portland Nov 2007: 1,062,000
Charlotte Dec 2007: 1,045,300
San Jose Dec 2007: 939,700
Austin Nov 2008: 798,400
Recession Jobs Low:
New York Jan 2010: 8,392,500
Los Angeles Aug 2010: 5,243,300
Chicago Jan 2010: 4,139,400
Washington DC Jan 2010: 2,916,500
Dallas Jan 2010: 2,867,300
Philadelphia Feb 2010: 2,645,900
Houston Jan 2010: 2,513,300
Boston Feb 2010: 2,385,400
Atlanta Jan 2010: 2,236,100
Miami Jul 2009: 2,152,700
San Francisco Jan 2010: 1,901,000
Minneapolis Feb 2010: 1,704,200
Detroit Jan 2010: 1,694,100
Phoenix Jul 2011: 1,665,300
Seattle Jan 2010: 1,637,200
St Louis Jan 2010: 1,258,900
Baltimore Feb 2010: 1,228,800
San Diego Jan 2010: 1,217,400
Denver Feb 2010: 1,167,600
Riverside Sep 2009: 1,142,000
Pittsburgh Feb 2010: 1,088,700
Portland Aug 2009: 969,900
Charlotte Jul 2009: 931,000
San Jose Feb 2010: 859,700
Austin Jan 2010: 765,700
Jobs Reached Pre Recession Levels:
New York Jun 2013: 9,075,100
Los Angeles Sep 2015: 5,848,800
Chicago May 2015: 4,621,500
Dallas April 2012: 3,064,900
Washington DC Nov 2011: 3,053,800
Philadelphia Jun 2015: 2,839,300
Houston Nov 2011: 2,667,100
Boston Jun 2012: 2,531,300
Atlanta Apr 2014: 2,483,200
Miami Oct 2014: 2,460,000
San Francisco Jul 2013: 2,095,300
Detroit Jun 2016: 1,996,500
Phoenix Oct 2015: 1,956,300
Minneapolis Sep 2013: 1,879,900
Seattle Jan 2014: 1,792,600
St Louis Oct 2015: 1,369,200
San Diego Apr 2014: 1,335,500
Baltimore Feb 2015: 1,331,800
Riverside Oct 2014: 1,313,700
Denver March 2013: 1,270,200
Pittsburgh May 2013: 1,168,100
Portland Oct 2013: 1,063,100
Charlotte Oct 2013: 1,046,900
San Jose Sep 2012: 935,500
Austin Oct 2010: 796,500
Months Needed to Recover Jobs to Pre Recession Levels:
110 Detroit
97 Chicago
96 Phoenix
94 Los Angeles
91 Philadelphia
89 San Diego
88 Baltimore
83 St Louis
75 Minneapolis
73 Charlotte
71 Miami
71 Riverside
69 San Francisco
68 Seattle
67 New York
65 Atlanta
64 San Jose
60 Pittsburgh
58 Denver
48 Boston
46 Dallas
36 Houston
36 Washington DC
24 Austin
Jobs Change During Recession:
-15.03% Detroit -299,700
-14.49% Phoenix -282,400
-12.58% Miami -310,500
-12.20% Riverside -158,800
-10.90% Charlotte -114,300
-10.36% Los Angeles -606,600
-10.25% Chicago -473,500
-10.01% Atlanta -248,800
-9.26% San Francisco -194,400
-9.03% Minneapolis -169,300
-8.91% Seattle -160,000
-8.89% San Diego -118,900
-8.73% San Jose -82,000
-8.67% Portland -92,100
-8.19% Denver -104,200
-8.06% St Louis -110,500
-7.79% Baltimore -103,900
-7.35% New York -665,900
-7.12% Philadelphia -203,100
-6.58% Pittsburgh -76,700
-6.45% Dallas -198,900
-5.77% Houston -154,700
-5.20% Boston -139,700
-4.26% Washington DC -130,900
-4.09% Austin -32,700
Post Recession Recovery Job Growth thru Feb 2019:
+35.35% Austin +281,600
+21.74% Dallas +665,700
+21.40% San Jose +200,200
+17.83% Denver +226,600
+17.52% San Francisco +367,400
+16.64% Houston +445,200
+15.67% Charlotte +164,900
+14.70% Riverside +193,200
+14.20% Seattle +254,700
+13.14% Atlanta +326,300
+12.86% Portland +136,800
+11.55% San Diego +154,300
+10.77% Miami +265,100
+10.20% Phoenix +199,700
+8.15% Boston +206,500
+7.74% New York +703,000
+7.73% Washington DC +236,000
+5.86% Baltimore +78,000
+5.52% Los Angeles +322,300
+4.95% Minneapolis +93,200
+3.23% Philadelphia +91,800
+1.69% Chicago +78,100
+0.93% Detroit +18,700
+0.67% St Louis +9,300
+0.50% Pittsburgh +5,900
Jobs Change During Recession:
-15.03% Detroit -299,700
-14.49% Phoenix -282,400
-12.58% Miami -310,500
-12.20% Riverside -158,800
-10.90% Charlotte -114,300
-10.36% Los Angeles -606,600
-10.25% Chicago -473,500
-10.01% Atlanta -248,800
-9.26% San Francisco -194,400
-9.03% Minneapolis -169,300
-8.91% Seattle -160,000
-8.89% San Diego -118,900
-8.73% San Jose -82,000
-8.67% Portland -92,100
-8.19% Denver -104,200
-8.06% St Louis -110,500
-7.79% Baltimore -103,900
-7.35% New York -665,900
-7.12% Philadelphia -203,100
-6.58% Pittsburgh -76,700
-6.45% Dallas -198,900
-5.77% Houston -154,700
-5.20% Boston -139,700
-4.26% Washington DC -130,900
-4.09% Austin -32,700
Post Recession Recovery Job Growth thru Feb 2019:
+35.35% Austin +281,600
+21.74% Dallas +665,700
+21.40% San Jose +200,200
+17.83% Denver +226,600
+17.52% San Francisco +367,400
+16.64% Houston +445,200
+15.67% Charlotte +164,900
+14.70% Riverside +193,200
+14.20% Seattle +254,700
+13.14% Atlanta +326,300
+12.86% Portland +136,800
+11.55% San Diego +154,300
+10.77% Miami +265,100
+10.20% Phoenix +199,700
+8.15% Boston +206,500
+7.74% New York +703,000
+7.73% Washington DC +236,000
+5.86% Baltimore +78,000
+5.52% Los Angeles +322,300
+4.95% Minneapolis +93,200
+3.23% Philadelphia +91,800
+1.69% Chicago +78,100
+0.93% Detroit +18,700
+0.67% St Louis +9,300
+0.50% Pittsburgh +5,900
I actually agree with the poster who mentioned the decentralization of jobs in DFW. I live around downtown and work in North Dallas and in Fort Worth. So many jobs are spread from Dallas, to Fort Worth, Las Colinas, Plano, Frisco, and Arlington that it certainly helps to spread the congestion.
Contrast this with Atlanta and Austin where everyone is rushing to arrive at one epicenter at once.
But, there's also a lot of merit to our street size in DFW. Rarely are roads too small. Even our secondary and tertiary streets are 3 lanes in one direction through neighborhoods (Royal, NW hwy, Walnut Hill, etc x1000).
The street size (as a whole) was surprising to me when I first came here and I can see it helping.
Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, Perimter Center, Cumberland, North Fulton are all massive business districts. Only 3 of the 6 main business districts of metro Atlanta are in the city itself. Dallas and Atlanta are both top heavy metros. HJAI is considered by some to be the 7th main business center, so if you include that, it’s still south of downtown. Maybe if you’re considering ITP as the epicenter. Even then, that’s pushing it because of the amount of smaller job centers scattered throughout the metro area. IMHO, Atlanta’s congestion would be solved with a secondary loop like Houston’s outer loop. Folks like to jump on the top end of 285 and the north metro’s traffic woes, when in fact, traffic is consistently heavy from the 475 split in Bolingbroke all the way to the airport. And, it’s virtually impossible to make it into Henry County without traffic slowing to a crawl sometimes for upwards of 30 mins. Holidays or big deal events, you can hang it up.
I actually agree with the poster who mentioned the decentralization of jobs in DFW. I live around downtown and work in North Dallas and in Fort Worth. So many jobs are spread from Dallas, to Fort Worth, Las Colinas, Plano, Frisco, and Arlington that it certainly helps to spread the congestion.
Contrast this with Atlanta and Austin where everyone is rushing to arrive at one epicenter at once.
But, there's also a lot of merit to our street size in DFW. Rarely are roads too small. Even our secondary and tertiary streets are 3 lanes in one direction through neighborhoods (Royal, NW hwy, Walnut Hill, etc x1000).
The street size (as a whole) was surprising to me when I first came here and I can see it helping.
Yes and I said multiple times in my post that the jobs in DFW are spread around. I lived there for years. What I've noticed on my recent visits back is traffic being much worse than it used to be. Any freeway/tollway heading north now has severe backups. The only side that's generally clear of traffic is Fort Worth outside of a few intersections. The spread out nature of jobs in DFW used to be of benefit when it was a smaller metro area, but it's a problem now (especially if all you can use are tollways).
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