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If the whole city has grown by 25% in a decade within city limits (Seattle will approach that), it's hundreds of new apartment buildings in many neighborhoods across town. And almost universally with far fewer parking spaces than housing units.
One result is that Seattle doesn't have much empty land. If we want to see that we go to Tacoma.
Obviously, Philadelphia would have to include Center City (the Central district), but then on from there it's probably South, University Southwest, and maybe Lower North unless all of that's too big. If you run into a source that does clean divisions and is in the max dozens rather than hundreds of divisions (i.e. census tracts), let me know.
That's the problem I'm running into. It definitely includes Center City, South Philly, Lower North Philly, and Kensington District (lower Northeast kinda). But I can't find geographic boundaries broad enough that don't require adding up like 100 different neighborhoods.
Obviously, Ville-Marie must be included as its downtown even though it's not the densest due to the islands that are not that inhabited, Mount Royal Park, and the old piers. From then on, it's going northwest-ish (or by the idiosyncratic local Montreal coordinate system, north) to take in the boroughs of Le Plateau-Mont-Royal (6), Rosemont–La Petite-Patrie (14), Villeray–Saint-Michel–Parc-Extension (19).
Montreal | Ville-Marie, Le Plateau-Mont-Royal, Rosemont–La Petite-Patrie, Villeray–Saint-Michel–Parc-Extension
22.0 sq mi | 6.4 + 3.1 + 6.1 + 6.4
476,613 people | 89,170 + 104,000 + 139,590 + 143,853
The somewhat less dense Outrement borough (11) at 1.5 square miles and 23,954 people is probably an arguable inclusion as it puts the Montreal core to a closer number to Manhattan's land area, just slightly larger than Manhattan rather than slightly smaller and also a more reasonable shape of sorts.
Montreal | Ville-Marie, Le Plateau-Mont-Royal, Rosemont–La Petite-Patrie, Villeray–Saint-Michel–Parc-Extension, Outrement
23.5 sq mi | 6.4 + 3.1 + 6.1 + 6.4 + 1.5
500,567 people | 89,170 + 104,000 + 139,590 + 143,853 + 23,954
There are actually quite a few dense, sizable boroughs not included that are just adjacent to the ones that are included. Montreal's parts of high density cover quite a good amount of area.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 04-02-2020 at 05:46 PM..
Greater structural density, more industrial areas especially amongst residential areas that give ya the traditional city feel. Classical downtown, lots of businesses open very late, more consistent residential density throughout a larger area
Greater structural density - yes.
More industrial areas especially amongst residential areas - Seattle does have a large industrial area close to downtown but not really amongst residential areas, so yes as well. However, I'm not sure I'd associate that with feeling more urban.
Classical downtown - Not sure what you mean here. I actually think Seattle has a significantly more impressive downtown than Baltimore. Where Baltimore shines and why I gave it the slight edge is that it has some of the most urban adjacent inner neighborhoods in the country. Seattle has good inner neighborhoods too but not at the level of Baltimore.
Lots of businesses open very late - I see no evidence that Baltimore has more businesses open late than Seattle. Both urban cores have plenty of bars open late, Seattle probably has more restaurants and stores although they seem relatively similar there. A sad side note: It sounds like a lot of places may permanently go out of business as a result of the current crisis, so who knows what the landscape in either place will be a year from now.
More consistent residential density throughout a larger area Not denser overall, but Baltimore absolutely has more consistent, uniform density in the urban core. Seattle has some high density residential areas in its urban core (Capitol Hill, Belltown, LQA) but also some commercial areas that have spottier residential density. That consistency is a plus for Baltimore.
Again, this one is as close to a toss-up as you can get.
Last edited by Vincent_Adultman; 04-02-2020 at 06:12 PM..
The East Coast is open late as a matter of course. Every national thing is three hours later -- games, the stock market, and so on.
As for the downtowns, I'd say Seattle has built more in the past decade than the sum total of what exists for Baltimore's equivalent, and it's not close.
Obviously, Philadelphia would have to include Center City (the Central district), but then on from there it's probably South, University Southwest, and maybe Lower North unless all of that's too big. If you run into a source that does clean divisions and is in the max dozens rather than hundreds of divisions (i.e. census tracts), let me know.
I was able to sorta figure it out.
From a combo of actual stats and from measuring on Google Maps:
Upper North: 6.36
Lower: 5.71
CC: 2.07
South: 9.7 Area: 23.84
2010 Population (CC 2018 rounded number): 602,563
Density: 25,275.3/sq mi
I'd be highly shocked if the density is not somewhere around 30k/sq mi in 2020. That population is definitely higher today with tons of infill in neighborhoods since 2010 in places like Old City, Fairmount, Grays Ferry, Point Breeze, Graduate Hospital, Brewerytown, Francisville, Strawberry Mansion, and others.
The East Coast is open late as a matter of course. Every national thing is three hours later -- games, the stock market, and so on.
As for the downtowns, I'd say Seattle has built more in the past decade than the sum total of what exists for Baltimore's equivalent, and it's not close.
To me this is actually kinda similar to the DC/Vancouver debate. Like DC, Baltimore is older and has a wider spread of density. Seattle is newer with more high rises, so its peak densities may be more urban than those in Baltimore. I don't think there's a clear winner for either one when considering just "urbanity." Do you prefer higher peaks of density in a smaller area, or more widespread sorta high density, but not NYC-style?
Looking at the NYT tract tool, I'm not seeing really dense tracts in residential terms anywhere near Downtown Baltimore. Seattle has a few that are denser than anything I'm seeing. Add some multiple of the office crowd, a ton more retail, and way more tourism, and these things are on very different scales.
It has good density all over town, but no places of great density. Seattle has many tracts way below Baltimore's typical levels, but also numerous tracts at those levels and some quite a bit higher, particularly if you use 2019 stats from the state or 2018s from the Census.
That's how apartments help...you can get more density than townhouses by a wide margin.
PS Jesse, here's a tiebreaker: substantially higher average density.
Habana | Plaza de la Revolución, Centro Habana, La Habana Vieja, Regla, Diez de Octubre, Cerro
21.6 sq mi | 5 + 2 + 2 + 3.6 + 5 + 4
821,841 people | 61,631 + 158,151 + 97,984 + 44,431 + 227,293 + 132,351 (2004)
Chicago | Near North Side, Loop, Lake View, Lincoln Park, Uptown, Edgewater, Rogers Park, Lincoln Square, North Center, Near South Side
22.7428 sq mi | 2.6948 + 1.555 + 3.12 + 3.097 + 2.319 + 1.721 + 1.845 + 2.555 + 2.044 + 1.792
568,965 people | 89,995 + 37,647 + 100,547 + 68,697 + 58,424 + 57,022 + 54,872 + 41,713 + 35,705 + 24,343 (2018)
Montreal | Ville-Marie, Le Plateau-Mont-Royal, Rosemont–La Petite-Patrie, Villeray–Saint-Michel–Parc-Extension, Outrement
23.5 sq mi | 6.4 + 3.1 + 6.1 + 6.4 + 1.5
500,567 people | 89,170 + 104,000 + 139,590 + 143,853 + 23,954
Panama City | Bella Vista, Betania, Calidonia, Curundú, El Chorrillo, Parque Lefevre, Pueblo Nuevo, Rio Abajo, San Felipe, San Francisco, Santa Ana; Amelia Denis de Icaza, Belisario Porras, Mateo Iturralde, Victoriano Lorenzo, Belisario FrÃas
22.2 sq mi | 16.4 + 5.8
471,040 people | 290997 (2016) + 180043 (2018)
Chicago | Near North Side, Loop, Near South Side, Lake View, Lincoln Park, West Town, Near West Side
22.72 sq mi | 2.72 + 1.58 + 1.75 + 3.16 + 3.19 + 4.57 + 5.75
463,947 people | 88,893 + 35,880 + 23,620 + 100,470 + 67,710 + 84,502 + 62,872 (2017)
Also, in case anyone is looking to do so, here are some some potential avenues for making ~22-23 square mile areas contiguous with the CBD for other cities:
Other cities that might be decent top 7 contenders are Guadalajara, Monterrey, Port-au-Prince, San Francisco, Boston, DC and Los Angeles. I think New York City, Mexico City, Havana, Chicago, and Santo Domingo are essentially shoe-ins. I haven't run more granular stats on Santo Domingo, but just how densely the city as a whole is built out and its function as a national capital makes it pretty likely. I might give another go at Chicago, because I think there might be a middle ground between the two up there which would include keeping the Near West Side. The Near West Side is massive and has a lot of not very dense parts of it, but it also includes a lot of fairly key institutions of the city.
Looking at the NYT tract tool, I'm not seeing really dense tracts in residential terms anywhere near Downtown Baltimore. Seattle has a few that are denser than anything I'm seeing. Add some multiple of the office crowd, a ton more retail, and way more tourism, and these things are on very different scales.
In terms of vibrancy I think it's clear Seattle wins by quite a bit, but that's only one element of urbanity.
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