Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In the late 1940s/early 1950s, Detroit, Cleveland, and St. Louis were not only the largest cities in the Midwest outside of Chicago, but they were also among the 10 largest cities in America.
1. How did these cities compare to each other when they were at their peak population/economic clout?
2. How did their circa 1950 transit systems compare to each other?
3. How did the downtown and neighborhood architecture of these 3 cities compare to each other before urban renewal and the construction of the expressways?
This may be a difficult thread to answer because fewer and fewer individuals from the greatest generation and the silent generation are around to speak about how these cities were in the 1940s and 1950s. But I hope someone might be able to provide some insight and a good comparison.
Thanks!
In the late 1940s/early 1950s, Detroit, Cleveland, and St. Louis were not only the largest cities in the Midwest outside of Chicago, but they were also among the 10 largest cities in America.
1. How did these cities compare to each other when they were at their peak population/economic clout?
2. How did their circa 1950 transit systems compare to each other?
3. How did the downtown and neighborhood architecture of these 3 cities compare to each other before urban renewal and the construction of the expressways?
This may be a difficult thread to answer because fewer and fewer individuals from the greatest generation and the silent generation are around to speak about how these cities were in the 1940s and 1950s. But I hope someone might be able to provide some insight and a good comparison.
Thanks!
St. Louis had its streetcar system intact, but urban renewal in downtown St. Louis started prior to WWII, not just in in the 1950s. For example, what eventually became the Arch grounds was a giant parking lot awaiting construction. President Truman didn't dedicate the site until 1950.
Also, Detroit is the clear juggernaut here. It was bigger than both Cleveland and St. Louis combined in 1950. It was the fifth largest city in the country, and, if it still had its 1950 population today, it would also still be the fifth largest city today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
St Louis had its relative peak around 1900. By 1950 I’d say it was pretty clearly Detroit, Cleveland, St Louis
The city still gained almost 300k people from 1900 to 1950, but its cultural zenith was likely the 1904 World's Fair. In terms of its peak prior to urban renewal, we're likely looking at the pre-WWII period. By 1950 the population peaked, but urban renewal had already begun.
Also, Detroit is the clear juggernaut here. It was bigger than both Cleveland and St. Louis combined in 1950. It was the fifth largest city in the country, and, if it still had its 1950 population today, it would also still be the fifth largest city today.
Personally I think Detroit also has the best downtown architecture compared to the other 2 cities. It has so many grand art deco and beaux art office and government buildings. A testament to how wealthy the region was. I read online that one reason Detroit still has a relatively large amount of pre-world war II architecture is because much of the center was simply abandoned instead of falling prey to redevelopment.
Following Detroit, I would say Cleveland has the next largest amount of intact downtown architecture from the years before WWII. Cleveland never lost the grand civic buildings flanking the mall, Terminal tower, or the historic buildings down Euclid, etc.
St. Louis appears to have a smaller amount of intact pre-world war architecture in it's center. Perhaps a combination of the the expressways, the clearing of the old waterfront for the arch, and the creation of the central mall right through the middle of center removed so many old structures. Not to mention the parking structures that continued to replace historic buildings in the last decades of the 20th century.
Personally I think Detroit also has the best downtown architecture compared to the other 2 cities. It has so many grand art deco and beaux art office and government buildings. A testament to how wealthy the region was. I read online that one reason Detroit still has a relatively large amount of pre-world war II architecture is because much of the center was simply abandoned instead of falling prey to redevelopment.
Following Detroit, I would say Cleveland has the next largest amount of intact downtown architecture from the years before WWII. Cleveland never lost the grand civic buildings flanking the mall, Terminal tower, or the historic buildings down Euclid, etc.
St. Louis appears to have a smaller amount of intact pre-world war architecture in it's center. Perhaps a combination of the the expressways, the clearing of the old waterfront for the arch, and the creation of the central mall right through the middle of center removed so many old structures. Not to mention the parking structures that continued to replace historic buildings in the last decades of the 20th century.
A great deal of downtown and downtown west in St. Louis is historic, but downtown and downtown west in St. Louis were never as vertical as Detroit or Cleveland were, and the city really started urban renewal in earnest before a lot of its peers.
For example you mentioned expressways, and St. Louis had Route 66 going through the city south of downtown in the 1920s. Additional highways were built and opened in the 1930s. This later morphed into I-64 that we have today. As for I-44 which separates downtown from the Arch, that was following the edge of the already cleared Arch grounds. I'd frankly argue that many of St. Louis' neighborhoods suffered more in the post-WWII period from highway construction than downtown itself did in terms of destruction.
The Gateway Mall certainly did lead to destruction, but that project also started in the 1920s and progressed for decades. The Arch grounds were cleared prior to WWII as well. 45% was already dilapidated and unoccupied, but no one seemed to care about the 19th century cast-iron buildings they were tearing down at the time.
You have me on the parking garage issues though. The fact that the Century Building was torn down as recently as 2004 for a parking garage and a ground level grocery store was devastating. Plenty of historic warehouses and office buildings were later converted into apartments and condos, and that's ongoing for multiple buildings currently, so we as a city might have finally learned our lesson there.
I'm not expert on what Detroit or Cleveland leveled in their downtowns during their own urban renewal periods, so I won't comment on that. All of that said, here's each city with its number of buildings 300" or higher and the number that predate WWII.
Detroit: 37
-Pre-WWII: 13
Cleveland: 21
-Pre-WWII: 2
St. Louis: 15*
-Pre-WWII: 3
*I'm not counting Saint Francis de Sales with its 300" steeple.
All of these cities have suffered from urban blight, population decimation and declining prominence. But Detroit today is far bigger, and has maintained its position the best in today's city status in the US, compared to the other two cities.
St Louis has plummeted with prominence, and Cleveland has as well--both economically and as a city that is growing/attractive as a relocation destination for families, young professionals, etc.
All 3 grew along streetcars (1s horsecars then electrified in the 1880s & 90s), but all 3 got rid of them by the 1950s.
Rapid Transit: Cleveland is the leader. In 1950 Cleveland already had the 1910s-era Shaker LRT lines in operation and, by 1950, approved the construction of the Red Line whose major infrastructure had already been begun as extensions of the Shaker Lines.
St. Louis got off the rapid transit mat in the 1990s and has built a nice system.
In the late 1940s/early 1950s, Detroit, Cleveland, and St. Louis were not only the largest cities in the Midwest outside of Chicago, but they were also among the 10 largest cities in America.
1. How did these cities compare to each other when they were at their peak population/economic clout?
2. How did their circa 1950 transit systems compare to each other?
3. How did the downtown and neighborhood architecture of these 3 cities compare to each other before urban renewal and the construction of the expressways?
This may be a difficult thread to answer because fewer and fewer individuals from the greatest generation and the silent generation are around to speak about how these cities were in the 1940s and 1950s. But I hope someone might be able to provide some insight and a good comparison.
Thanks!
Here's a similar thread where Detroit won in a landslide for reference:
Btownboss makes a good point that Detroit was a slightly later bloomer than STL, so I think it can be eliminated.
Detroit would have had the quantity over Cleveland in 1950, but I'm not sure about quality. I honestly don't think Cleveland would have been viewed as a lesser city than Detroit in 1950, and some might have seen Cleveland as having higher stature.
Only way to know would be to sift though old newspaper op eds I guess.
I believe Detroit came out of the gates in the early 1900's with one of the largest streetcar systems, but they seem to have gradually given up on mass transit over the decades.
Btownboss makes a good point that Detroit was a slightly later bloomer than STL, so I think it can be eliminated.
Detroit would have had the quantity over Cleveland in 1950, but I'm not sure about quality. I honestly don't think Cleveland would have been viewed as a lesser city than Detroit in 1950, and some might have seen Cleveland as having higher stature.
Only way to know would be to sift though old newspaper op eds I guess.
I believe Detroit came out of the gates in the early 1900's with one of the largest streetcar systems, but they seem to have gradually given up on mass transit over the decades.
Good points. I think some C-Ders are only judging cities by their population sizes which, though can be a factor, should not always be THE factor. Both Detroit and Cleveland were major industrial powers growing from the late 19th Century Industrial Revolution until the 1960s, when advanced technology moved the country -- and, indeed, the world -- away from more labor-intensive heavy industry. In addition, there became a widespread industry and concomitant population shift away from the NE/Great Lakes region to warmer weather locales in the so called 'Sunbelt.'
St. Louis was a great industrial power, too, but is older and seemed to peak earlier than the other 2. Quite obviously, all 3 cities went into serious population and industry decline and were poster children for American urban decay. But all 3 are making serious comeback inroads.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
