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Other: Burlington, VT. Perhaps uncoincidentally, it's my favorite city in the country
Was there for the first time last summer on a college trip (it's on the list that is down to three for the kid). Yeah, great city. On my list to revist as a possible retirement location.
Ditto: Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Austin, New York, (and, remember James Carville's: "PA is Phila on one end, Pittsburgh, on the other, with Alabama in between")... in other words, EVERY big city in America. And it really doesn't bode well for the future of our country.
No it does not.
HOWEVER, at the very least, its a divide that can be overcome with minimal bloodshed compared to the original US civil war, because at least this time, it isn't a divide that splits the country geographically in half that could lead to well organized standing armies facing each other on the battlefield.
Personally I feel hopeful with the way Biden is managing the issues of the day that he's beginning the process of stepping away from the brink and starting to heal, but that's for the politic forum.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf
Ditto: Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, Austin, New York, (and, remember James Carville's: "PA is Phila on one end, Pittsburgh, on the other, with Alabama in between")... in other words, EVERY big city in America. And it really doesn't bode well for the future of our country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex?Il?
No it does not.
HOWEVER, at the very least, its a divide that can be overcome with minimal bloodshed compared to the original US civil war, because at least this time, it isn't a divide that splits the country geographically in half that could lead to well organized standing armies facing each other on the battlefield.
Personally I feel hopeful with the way Biden is managing the issues of the day that he's beginning the process of stepping away from the brink and starting to heal, but that's for the politic forum.
And this is why the whole talk of red states and blue states and each going their separate ways is so freaking stupid.
In Texas, you have a small number of nuts that want the state to secede. The problem with that is that they never think it through. They are forgetting one very important detail: there is no way in hell Austin, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, and a good chunk of their suburbs would ever be willing to go along and there is no way they could be forced. So even IF Texas tried to, it would basically be East, West, and portions of South Texas on their own. The major cities that make Texas what it is are already blue and would NEVER be apart of a seceded Texas.
Strange enough, Portlanders call Vancouver Vantucky.
I did once crack wise that "the term 'Pennsyltucky' is an insult to Kentucky."
FWIW, the exact James Carville statement was "From Paoli to Penn Hills it's all Alabama in between." (Paoli is the historic western end of Philadelphia's "Main Line" suburbs, and Penn Hills is a suburb on Pittsburgh's eastern border. His choice of another community in Allegheny County proved prescient, because the counties surrounding Allegheny, once reliably Democratic, went red in 2016 and haven't returned to the Democratic fold; Allegheny itself remains Democratic.)
I did once crack wise that "the term 'Pennsyltucky' is an insult to Kentucky."
FWIW, the exact James Carville statement was "From Paoli to Penn Hills it's all Alabama in between." (Paoli is the historic western end of Philadelphia's "Main Line" suburbs, and Penn Hills is a suburb on Pittsburgh's eastern border. His choice of another community in Allegheny County proved prescient, because the counties surrounding Allegheny, once reliably Democratic, went red in 2016 and haven't returned to the Democratic fold; Allegheny itself remains Democratic.)
The thing is it's meant as an insult by most who say it, but it's also an ignorant thing to say both in terms of the states of Kentucky or Alabama (which are really just stand-ins for 'hick places' in those comparisons) and the rest of Pennsylvania. For one there's actually considerable diversity in terms of landscape, settlement and economic development between different areas in PA outside Philly/Pittsburgh and secondly a lot of that is actually pleasant country that I'd certainly prefer over a good few areas of Pittsburgh and Philly.
I mean I get it, growing up in a big city, I used to think of the outskirts of that city as essentially beyond the pale, never mind the surrounding countryside which was essentially 'terra incognito' where god knows what might happen to you. But as I got older I also allowed my mind to be changed by experience, and I actually pity some of the people I grew up with who never left the city and just got stuck in that way of thinking.
The thing is it's meant as an insult by most who say it, but it's also an ignorant thing to say both in terms of the states of Kentucky or Alabama (which are really just stand-ins for 'hick places' in those comparisons) and the rest of Pennsylvania. For one there's actually considerable diversity in terms of landscape, settlement and economic development between different areas in PA outside Philly/Pittsburgh and secondly a lot of that is actually pleasant country that I'd certainly prefer over a good few areas of Pittsburgh and Philly.
I mean I get it, growing up in a big city, I used to think of the outskirts of that city as essentially beyond the pale, never mind the surrounding countryside which was essentially 'terra incognito' where god knows what might happen to you. But as I got older I also allowed my mind to be changed by experience, and I actually pity some of the people I grew up with who never left the city and just got stuck in that way of thinking.
"Here there be Dragons."
Agreed with you that the rest of Pennsylvania is actually much more varied than either epithet allows for.
For instance, I'm a huge fan of Lancaster, the city and metro just to Philadelphia's west. The biggest city in Amish country is a pretty sophisticated place with an artsy vibe and great food, and I've told others that "it's the coolest small city on the entire East Coast." It's also as liberal as its surrounding county is conservative. But never mind politics; Lancaster County as a whole is a great place to visit and roam around, with lots of interesting small towns, some with names that draw giggles (yes, I have been to Intercourse).
Agreed with you that the rest of Pennsylvania is actually much more varied than either epithet allows for.
For instance, I'm a huge fan of Lancaster, the city and metro just to Philadelphia's west. The biggest city in Amish country is a pretty sophisticated place with an artsy vibe and great food, and I've told others that "it's the coolest small city on the entire East Coast." It's also as liberal as its surrounding county is conservative. But never mind politics; Lancaster County as a whole is a great place to visit and roam around, with lots of interesting small towns, some with names that draw giggles (yes, I have been to Intercourse).
Central PA is full of depressing and economically depressed little towns, especially along the Susquehanna/the former US route 15, which is a key component of the driving route from Buffalo to DC. I have a friend from Ephrata PA and a friend from Lebanon PA. Look those two up on a map, if you (and VV) will. Both are geographically kind of in the southeastern part of the state, but from my understanding, they're central PA through and through. Lebanon friend works for a beer distributor here in Buffalo; he sometimes seems disheartened that he never completed his grad program in American history, as he's quite an intelligent, thoughtful guy. He was in the same history PhD program as another friend at SUNY Buffalo, and he kind of worked his way into our greater, long-established network of friends that goes back to childhood in some cases (college in 2004-2005 for me is when I got to know these guys). We do a fantasy football league together, the draft for which is the one date annually that is guaranteed to bring everyone together (unfortunately). Anyway, Lebanon guy remains elated that he escaped Lebanon, which he ridicules on the regular. You'd think he escaped the more famous Lebanon (the one with Hezbollah) with the way he talks about the place.
Ephrata friend I met online through a Facebook group I moderated, centered ostensibly on fandom of a guy who wrote a 1,900 page book of philosophy that he posted online before killing himself on Harvard's campus 10+ years ago. I became a co-moderator because I wished to assist in the effort to keep the text of 'Suicide Note' freely accessible online. So I'd make the occasional post; I was more vocal than the other two moderators (one of whom also happened to be from upstate NY). The guy from Ephrata liked what I had to say, and he reached out to me, confided that he was quite depressed and sometimes suicidal himself. It's no real surprise that such a FB page would attract people as intrigued by the author's final act as by what he'd actually written. Ephrata guy was clearly quite intelligent and wrote well, but he felt trapped in his hometown, a place where he felt he related to no one. Eventually we spoke on the phone, and the guy sounded like a British intellectual, accent and all--I could imagine where he'd find camaraderie hard to come by in Dead Small Town, USA. He ended up heading off to college at Marlboro, an unconventional small college in Vermont, before enrolling in a poli Sci grad program at Seton Hall. Last I spoke to him was April 2020, as I did one of my many early-pandemic aimless-walks-around-my-neighborhood-with-beer, and he was doing the same in New Jersey, except with whisky IIRC.
There's no place in Central PA for escapees like these two.
ETA that US route 15 appears to have remained US route 15. When I last drove to DC, there were plenty of signs announcing its status as 'future I-99', but that appears to only have come to fruition in the small northernmost portion of the route that runs through NY State
Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 04-26-2024 at 11:32 AM..
Was there for the first time last summer on a college trip (it's on the list that is down to three for the kid). Yeah, great city. On my list to revist as a possible retirement location.
Nice--yeah, I think it's off the radar for most people. Even those who visit Vermont may only be heading to Stowe or Killington for skiing, hiking, etc. My first time in Burlington, my family had no idea what we were getting into...we were staying in Lake George, NY for the week, and we took the ferry across Lake Champlain from NY to Burlington one late afternoon. Well, there happened to be a Phish concert in the city that night. I wish I'd been age 20 rather than 10, but even at that age, I was kind of enjoying the spectacle. I even tucked a maple leaf between my ear and baseball cap out of solidarity for the people were walking around draped in branches/foliage (but otherwise nude). Quite the indelible first impression of the place!
Marijuana has been progressively decriminalized since 1974
Abortion access right have been enshrined since 1990
The country's first open LGBT politician was elected in 1974
There has only been twice since 1968 that a Republican carried the county - 1976 when a Michigan alumni ran and 1984 when the entire country voted for Reagan.
79.5% of the population 25+ has at least a Bachelor's, and another 4.3% an associates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
Can’t forget the Naked Run or do they still do that in AA?
Central PA is full of depressing and economically depressed little towns, especially along the Susquehanna/the former US route 15, which is a key component of the driving route from Buffalo to DC. I have a friend from Ephrata PA and a friend from Lebanon PA. Look those two up on a map, if you (and VV) will. Both are geographically kind of in the southeastern part of the state, but from my understanding, they're central PA through and through. Lebanon friend works for a beer distributor here in Buffalo; he sometimes seems disheartened that he never completed his grad program in American history, as he's quite an intelligent, thoughtful guy. He was in the same history PhD program as another friend at SUNY Buffalo, and he kind of worked his way into our greater, long-established network of friends that goes back to childhood in some cases (college in 2004-2005 for me is when I got to know these guys). We do a fantasy football league together, the draft for which is the one date annually that is guaranteed to bring everyone together (unfortunately). Anyway, Lebanon guy remains elated that he escaped Lebanon, which he ridicules on the regular. You'd think he escaped the more famous Lebanon (the one with Hezbollah) with the way he talks about the place.
Ephrata friend I met online through a Facebook group I moderated, centered ostensibly on fandom of a guy who wrote a 1,900 page book of philosophy that he posted online before killing himself on Harvard's campus 10+ years ago. I became a co-moderator because I wished to assist in the effort to keep the text of 'Suicide Note' freely accessible online. So I'd make the occasional post; I was more vocal than the other two moderators (one of whom also happened to be from upstate NY). The guy from Ephrata liked what I had to say, and he reached out to me, confided that he was quite depressed and sometimes suicidal himself. It's no real surprise that such a FB page would attract people as intrigued by the author's final act as by what he'd actually written. Ephrata guy was clearly quite intelligent and wrote well, but he felt trapped in his hometown, a place where he felt he related to no one. Eventually we spoke on the phone, and the guy sounded like a British intellectual, accent and all--I could imagine where he'd find camaraderie hard to come by in Dead Small Town, USA. He ended up heading off to college at Marlboro, an unconventional small college in Vermont, before enrolling in a poli Sci grad program at Seton Hall. Last I spoke to him was April 2020, as I did one of my many early-pandemic aimless-walks-around-my-neighborhood-with-beer, and he was doing the same in New Jersey, except with whisky IIRC.
There's no place in Central PA for escapees like these two.
ETA that US route 15 appears to have remained US route 15. When I last drove to DC, there were plenty of signs announcing its status as 'future I-99', but that appears to only have come to fruition in the small northernmost portion of the route that runs through NY State
PA is a huge state though with a lot of variety. Generally speaking in PA like anywhere else the 'niceness' of the town will be to a large extent dependent on whether locals have a source of money or not. That means places with still existing employers either public or private and/or tourist revenue or a retiree presence will be nicer than old factory towns where that factory closed a decade or two ago. PA isn't really any different than upstate New York or many other states in that regard.
But I don't know if a small town will ever be a happy place for people like that. And quite honestly, you're not going to meet city natives with the same enthusiasm for urban living that rural newcomers to the city exhibit.
Now there's multiple ways of looking at that, you can say the city folks just take it for granted and thus don't appreciate it. On the other hand, they (we) might also simply be more familiar with the downsides and also don't feel a need to prove any point (while I get the impression from newbies to the city that they constantly need to show they belong and are better than the folks back home because they've 'arrived').
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