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Wow- six months and seven pages later, not a single person has acknowledged that "Hispanic" and "Latino" are not racial descriptors. At least ckthankgod hinted at it when putting "Hispanics" in quotation marks.
You'd better believe that dark-skinned mestizo Mexicans, white Cubans and Argentinians, and dark-skinned mulatto and black Dominicans and Puerto Ricans are treated drastically differently when it comes to interracial dating. Many Dominican/African-American relationships are not interracial at all, and neither are the great majority of "Hispanic"/Anglo-American relationships I saw growing up in South Florida. Also, it's really pushing the concept of "interracial" when a light-skinned mestizo Mexican-American is dating an Anglo-American in the Southwest. It seems pretty unnatural to call someone who is 3/4 white and someone who is fully white to be in an "interracial" relationship.
Additionally, South Asians (as opposed to East Asians) are Caucasian, and relationships between whites ("white" just means "light-skinned Caucasian"; it is technically a color descriptor and not a race) and South Asians are not interracial, but rather intercultural or interreligious.
"Interracial" means a combination of Caucasian, East Asian, and black, and has nothing to do with mixing of religions (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) or culture (Anglo, Latin, Arab, etc.). It is certainly useful to talk about interreligious or intercultural relationships, but this thread is about race and these concepts should not be blurred.
Crisp while I respect your opinion, you have it all wrong man. And it shows how backwards racial identities are. Really this thred should be entitled cross cultural relationships.
I think your whole post shows how convuluted the concept of race is. The term Caucasian spans alot of different peoples. For crying out loud Ethiopians, and many East Africans are caucasian yet their skin tone is black in color.
That being said, the average white person from Europe on the street stills sees that person as Indian, Arab, or Ethiopian. So in that sense yes it is "interracial" from a cultural perspective. Ill give you a good example of this. Right now in Russia there is alot of discrimination against people from the Caucasus (the root of the term Caucasian) countries like Armenia, Georgia, Azerbijan. Yet the average Russian person does not look at these people as of the same Race, yet they are both Caucasian.
If I want to get techincal there really is no such thing as race from a biological perspective. Essentially we are varying shades of phenotype on a scale (shades of grey).
This is why modern day genetics and biology has come very far from the old days of anthropology. Caucasoied features are shared by many different peoples groups of different skin colors and physical traits.
Really this thred should be entitled cross cultural relationships.
Quite possibly it should have been titled as such. But I am responding to the question that was asked, as race and ethnicity are different concepts. I really don't think the OP intended for a discussion about all of the intercultural dating going on between African-Americans and Afro-Caribbeans or between relationships of white Americans and white Europeans, but if he would have asked about that, I would have been more than happy to talk about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skifan77
I think your whole post shows how convuluted the concept of race is. The term Caucasian spans alot of different peoples. For crying out loud Ethiopians, and many East Africans are caucasian yet their skin tone is black in color.
Yes, it does. I'm glad you brought this up. My post was about race, and race only speaks to a small part of diversity - culture and religion are also very important. However, this is the United States and race is still a big deal. I have seen recently-immigrated white Latin Americans and Eastern Europeans who speak very little English dating Anglo-Americans and no one has batted an eye; but when an Anglo-American dates a black person whose family has been in this country for hundreds of years, it is still to an extent seen as taboo and controversial. Many people care far more about race than about culture, language, and all of the other things that differentiate people within a race and outside of that race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skifan77
That being said, the average white person from Europe on the street stills sees that person as Indian, Arab, or Ethiopian. So in that sense yes it is "interracial" from a cultural perspective. Ill give you a good example of this. Right now in Russia there is alot of discrimination against people from the Caucasus (the root of the term Caucasian) countries like Armenia, Georgia, Azerbijan. Yet the average Russian person does not look at these people as of the same Race, yet they are both Caucasian.
Of course a European person sees Indians and Arabs as different. Race in Europe isn't nearly as big of a deal as it is here; the conflicts there are centered on religion and culture. There is a LOT of discrimination and prejudice in Europe against certain groups of people, and some of them are white. However, it seems that few people in this country really know or care that Romanians face hurdles in Spain, Polish face hurdles in Britain, and Turks face hurdles in Germany. The media here focus on the obstacles faced by sub-Saharan (black) African immigrants living in the banlieues of Paris and picking fruit and vegetables in Italy. The average American is very familiar with discrimination based on race (racism) but has little to no experience with discrimination based on religion or culture.
As a continent, Europe never really had to think about race until fairly recently. Did they have to think about language, religion, and culture? Absolutely. Contrast that to the United States, where the overwhelmingly largest historical division in the population was between white and black. Protestants, Catholics, Jews, German-speakers, Spanish-speakers, Italian-speakers, Polish-speakers and more have integrated very well into the population of this country. When you look at where these people live, go to school, and socialize, you will see that they interact largely with other white people. There have been (white) Lebanese and Syrian people living in Brooklyn and northern NJ for almost 100 years now and they are very well-integrated with the rest of the white population. I mention this to show that regardless of the narrow construction some Americans may have of race or even the color "white," white immigrants have always - eventually, albeit after facing some prejudice and discrimination - been accepted into white American society. I sadly cannot sit here in good faith and say the same about blacks, who still face far more prejudice and discrimination than any other group... and African-Americans (the lion's share of blacks in this country) have roots in this country dating back 250+ years!
If people in this country really thought that culture were more important than race, there would be no distinction between black and white Southerners. If people in this country really thought that religion were more important than race, you wouldn't have such a high rate of intermarriage and residential integration between Protestants, Catholics, and Jews. It cracks me up when people on this website look at established city and suburban neighborhoods and the Northeast and conclude that they are not "diverse" because they are 90%+ white. When it is pointed out that people are of different backgrounds and religions, a typical response is, "Yeah, I guess, but it's still all white." After having lived in Europe (Madrid), a bicultural area of the United States (Miami area), and large cities in the Northeast (Boston and New York), it is crystal clear to me that even in 2010, Americans care far more about race than about any other element of the "diversity" for which this country is lauded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skifan77
If I want to get techincal there really is no such thing as race from a biological perspective. Essentially we are varying shades of phenotype on a scale (shades of grey).
Race is certainly a social construction. However, as you have said yourself, people see people who look different than them as different from them. Everytime I have ever heard someone remind people in a debate over race that we are all of the human race, the response is always the same: "Yeah, I guess, but...." People aren't ready to let go of race, and for that reason I sincerely doubt that threads like this will disappear anytime soon.
Last edited by Marlin331; 02-15-2010 at 01:15 PM..
Race is certainly a social construction. However, as you have said yourself, people see people who look different than them as different from them. .
Exactly and that was the whole point I was trying to make in my response. Because you said that this whole post has been convulted by the misuse of terms. In conclusion the term Caucasian is not the same as the term white...
Anyways that is besides the point of the OP, the question was what part of the nation has the highest amount of inter ethnic/ interracial marriage.
Exactly and that was the whole point I was trying to make in my response. Because you said that this whole post has been convulted by the misuse of terms. In conclusion the term Caucasian is not the same as the term white...
Anyways that is besides the point of the OP, the question was what part of the nation has the highest amount of inter ethnic/ interracial marriage.
I never said that Caucasian equals white. In my original post I said that "whites" are only a sub-set of the Caucasian race.
Also, the OP said nothing about "interethnic" marriage; he asked about race. My whole discussion above about Americans and race speaks to that. People in this country just don't care that much about Italians dating Irish dating Argentinians dating Israelis dating Brits or Catholics dating Jewish dating Protestants, but they DO care about whites dating blacks dating Asians. The OP's original question about interracial dating is the relevant matter.
Last edited by Marlin331; 02-15-2010 at 05:25 PM..
Crisp while I respect your opinion, you have it all wrong man. And it shows how backwards racial identities are. Really this thred should be entitled cross cultural relationships.
I think your whole post shows how convuluted the concept of race is. The term Caucasian spans alot of different peoples. For crying out loud Ethiopians, and many East Africans are caucasian yet their skin tone is black in color.
That being said, the average white person from Europe on the street stills sees that person as Indian, Arab, or Ethiopian. So in that sense yes it is "interracial" from a cultural perspective. Ill give you a good example of this. Right now in Russia there is alot of discrimination against people from the Caucasus (the root of the term Caucasian) countries like Armenia, Georgia, Azerbijan. Yet the average Russian person does not look at these people as of the same Race, yet they are both Caucasian.
If I want to get techincal there really is no such thing as race from a biological perspective. Essentially we are varying shades of phenotype on a scale (shades of grey).
This is why modern day genetics and biology has come very far from the old days of anthropology. Caucasoied features are shared by many different peoples groups of different skin colors and physical traits.
Race is a socially constructed phenomenon, but as an individual that is 1/4 Eritrean (the country right next to Ethiopia) I can assure you that Ethiopians are indeed of the "negro" diaspora. Actually the proper term is "Afro-Asiatic", which is Some tribes have thinner hair and slimmer noses (much like my grandmother), but I think many Ethiopians would be confused if you said they were more white than black. The people of East Africa have their own distinct facial features, but are much more closely related to someone from Sudan or Nigeria than Poland or France. This is like me saying "Italians are black, but they just have olive colored skin". Its just not true.
Americans often think that all Black Africans have the same features (wide nose, big lips, big butts, high cheek bones, dark skin), but this is simply not true. These are features associated with Western Africans (where most Afro-Americans, Caribbean, and Afro-Latino people come from).
Asians/Indians & Whites: Acceptable almost everywhere (including ALL major cities). This includes Asian/Indian men and White women (ex. the popularity of Kate and Jon)
Black Women & White Men: Acceptable in most major cities outside of the deep south. Also acceptable in most of the rural and suburban parts of the Western states
Black Men and White Women: Most acceptable in most major and medium-sized cities west of the Mississippi River. Also acceptable in most of the rural and suburban parts of the Western states and cities where blacks aren't seen as the majority of the lower class and crime reports.
Latinos and Whites: More acceptable in places where there aren't a lot of illegal immigrants.
Latinos and Blacks: Acceptable in places where there is a low presence of illegal immigrants and "stereotypical" blacks. Also acceptable in the New South (places I indicated in my first post) - Ironically, during the 90s, I found this to be the least controversial of all IR pairings.
Asians/Indians and Blacks: Acceptable in of places where there is a low presence of FOBs and "stereotypical" blacks. Also surprisingly acceptable in most of the New South (places I indicated in my first post) and West (outside of LA and SF).
Asians/Indians and Latinos: acceptable in places where there is a low presence of illegal immigrants and FOBs.
This is a very interesting answer, but are you referring to "Latinos" with dark-skinned mestizos (mostly Native American but mixed with white) in mind? I ask because you reference illegal immigration and I know you live near Washington, DC, where most "Latinos" fit that description or are white. There don't seem to be many mulatto (mixed black and white) "Latinos" in your area, so I don't think you were speaking with them in mind.
I ask not to nitpick but rather because the race or racial mix of a "Latino" person makes a big differences in many areas, and when it comes to some relationships between "Latinos" and non-"Latinos," the relationship isn't actually iterracial at all (e.g. black Dominicans and African Americans in NYC; white Cubans and Anglo-Americans in Miami).
Race is a socially constructed phenomenon, but as an individual that is 1/4 Eritrean (the country right next to Ethiopia) I can assure you that Ethiopians are indeed of the "negro" diaspora. Actually the proper term is "Afro-Asiatic", which is Some tribes have thinner hair and slimmer noses (much like my grandmother), but I think many Ethiopians would be confused if you said they were more white than black. The people of East Africa have their own distinct facial features, but are much more closely related to someone from Sudan or Nigeria than Poland or France. This is like me saying "Italians are black, but they just have olive colored skin". Its just not true.
Americans often think that all Black Africans have the same features (wide nose, big lips, big butts, high cheek bones, dark skin), but this is simply not true. These are features associated with Western Africans (where most Afro-Americans, Caribbean, and Afro-Latino people come from).
Americans based their view of human race on the fact that most Whites had northern European ancestry, most Blacks western African, and Asians east Asia. Of course they look different. Those are three different corners of the so called old world. But anyone who has lived in the old world outside of the regions mentioned knows that the reality is much more complicated. A lot of the natives of southeast, south, west Asia and Oceania would be considered Black by American standards, and you can find Caucasian features* all over Asia and Africa, just as you can find Asian features* in Africa and Europe.
A lot of the native populations of countries outside of the Americas don't fit into Black, Asian, or White, and are closer to the so called "Latino look" or a whole different category altogether.
In this thread on page 9 & 10 you can see how southeast Asians and Austronesians (Pacific Islanders to Madagascar) look like. Not to mention people from the south, west, central Asia, eastern and southern Africa and Australia.
Here's a picture of an (southern) African native to that looks more like a Chinese or someone from southeast Asia. Just a very small, insignificant example to give you an idea of how diverse and yet similar we humans are.
*Features: skin color/skin tone, shapes of the eyes, nose, lips, brow ridge, eye color, hair color, hair density, hair texture, stature (:height, width, fat distribution), cheekbones, etc.
Last edited by Neutre; 02-17-2010 at 01:58 AM..
Reason: "Features" explanation
Americans based their view of human race on the fact that most Whites had northern European ancestry, most Blacks western African, and Asians east Asia. Of course they look different. Those are three different corners of the so called old world. But anyone who has lived in the old world outside of the regions mentioned knows that the reality is much more complicated. A lot of the natives of southeast, south, west Asia and Oceania would be considered Black by American standards, and you can find Caucasian features* all over Asia and Africa, just as you can find Asian features* in Africa and Europe.
A lot of the native populations of countries outside of the Americas don't fit into Black, Asian, or White, and are closer to the so called "Latino look" or a whole different category altogether.
In this thread on page 9 & 10 you can see how southeast Asians and Austronesians (Pacific Islanders to Madagascar) look like. Not to mention people from the south, west, central Asia, eastern and southern Africa and Australia.
Here's a picture of an (southern) African native to that looks more like a Chinese or someone from southeast Asia. Just a very small, insignificant example to give you an idea of how diverse and yet similar we humans are.
*Features: skin color/skin tone, shapes of the eyes, nose, lips, brow ridge, eye color, hair color, hair density, hair texture, stature (:height, width, fat distribution), cheekbones, etc.
Crisp the vast majority of latinos living in America are of the mestizo heritage. Especially those living out west I would bet.
I am glad you posted this picture. Human variation is alot more diverse and don't necessairly fit into our little neat categories we make.
And in response to Goats comment above, that Ethiopians are part of the "negro diaspora" I would have to disagree. Do Ethiopians share a common history with many Africans? Sure, but I bet you anything Ethiopians are far more closely related to people living in Saudi Arabia then someone living in Nigeria.
I make this point because it all depends on what angle you are looking at the picture from. I will say that in general relationships with blacks are still probably the least accepted of all racial groups. There are plenty of white people who don't care about so called whites dating latinos or Asians. But there are still lots of racists people who do care.
I have a good friend from Greecewho grew up in the south and was discriminated against as a young person because of his dark skin complexion. Sure even in the 1950s greeks were considered white, but in many parts of the south back then it didnt matter. Granted he is older and this was 50 years ago, but such things were not uncommon in the 1950s. I am sure today if he was born he would have no problem. But attitudes about race and ethincity in this country have changed drastically in 50 years.
That being said there ARE STILL people out there who do care. There is still plenty of people out there who have an intense hatred for jews. Certainly the vast majority of Americans probably don't care. But you bring up the point about whites dating Isrealis. Have you ever been to Isreal? it is an extremely diverse country. Half of the population in the state of Isreali is of Sephardic jewish origin. There is a sizable Ethiopian contingent of jews from Ethiopia as well. My point is that all these people cliam to be Isreali. Which I am sure they have a common ancestor. But the reality is that it is culture that binds the jewish state together. Like I said before the history of national identity and race is alot more complicated then you make it out to be.
If you ever visit Isreal you will have a hard time telling the children of Russian immigrants they are not Isreali, you will also have a hard time telling a yemini jewish child, or an Ethiopian jewish child living in Isreal that he is not Isreali.. I bring this up, because ultimately religion/culture and common history has the ability to forge new people groups. Race is not as static as you like to make it out to be. What we come to know as various ethnic groups today is actually a collection of different groups who settled different regions and became distinct over time.
Would it be the West, the South, the Midwest, or the Northeast?
1) The West-Most tolerant
2) Northeast-When I went to NYC I've seen every possible interracial coupling. I meet a Somali Women who was married to a man who was a Japanese Brazillian. They had the most beautiful children.
3) The South-I've gotten a rude comments from Black men in DC while I was out with my ex who is a White Hispanic. It's ok for the most part.
4) Midwest-It has to be the most racist/ignorant/segreagated area especially in Michgan!!! Ugh, people are openly racist in the Midwest and there is a large Neo-nazi and KKK movement in the Midwest.
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