Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I grew up in Cleveland. In the 80s and 90s, Cleveland felt like a city with national standing...perhaps among the top 10 in importance. I used to visit relatives in Chicago, and it felt like a big Cleveland. Compared to St Louis, Pittsburgh, and Detroit, Cleveland felt more or less on par. Atlanta was in a tier below, as were certainly Cincy and Columbus.
As a kid growing up in the inner ring suburbs, I measured importance by our malls, neighborhoods, parks, museums, chain stores and restaurants, airport, highways, national media attention, etc. On all those measures, Cleveland felt important. There were obviously problems with crime, loss of industry, and population decline, but Cleveland didn't seem any worse than any other Rust Belt city. I was probably naive.
I currently live in California, and recently visited Cleveland to see relatives. I was shocked to see how stagnant the city felt. There was hardly traffic, ever. Hopkins airport felt like a regional airport. The neighborhoods felt quiet, with no new construction. Aside from Legacy Village and Crocker Park, the malls appeared raggedy and desolate. Most surprising were the people. Everyone seemed old, local, and insular. Cleveland feels like a wooded cul de sac in a blue collar neighborhood.
Returning back home, I would talk to friends about my trip back home. Surprisingly, no one had much knowledge of Cleveland, either positive or negative. Whereas Detroit is known nationally as a symbol of the Auto Industry and decay, Cleveland has no reputation. I think Cleveland has slipped out of the national consciousness, and registers in the same stream of thought as Buffalo. Even Pittsburgh seems to have more perceived importance and momentum. Somehow Cleveland feels like the largest forgotten city in the Nation.
I grew up in Cleveland. In the 80s and 90s, Cleveland felt like a city with national standing...perhaps among the top 10 in importance. I used to visit relatives in Chicago, and it felt like a big Cleveland. Compared to St Louis, Pittsburgh, and Detroit, Cleveland felt more or less on par. Atlanta was in a tier below, as were certainly Cincy and Columbus.
As a kid growing up in the inner ring suburbs, I measured importance by our malls, neighborhoods, parks, museums, chain stores and restaurants, airport, highways, national media attention, etc. On all those measures, Cleveland felt important. There were obviously problems with crime, loss of industry, and population decline, but Cleveland didn't seem any worse than any other Rust Belt city. I was probably naive.
I currently live in California, and recently visited Cleveland to see relatives. I was shocked to see how stagnant the city felt. There was hardly traffic, ever. Hopkins airport felt like a regional airport. The neighborhoods felt quiet, with no new construction. Aside from Legacy Village and Crocker Park, the malls appeared raggedy and desolate. Most surprising were the people. Everyone seemed old, local, and insular. Cleveland feels like a wooded cul de sac in a blue collar neighborhood.
Returning back home, I would talk to friends about my trip back home. Surprisingly, no one had much knowledge of Cleveland, either positive or negative. Whereas Detroit is known nationally as a symbol of the Auto Industry and decay, Cleveland has no reputation. I think Cleveland has slipped out of the national consciousness, and registers in the same stream of thought as Buffalo. Even Pittsburgh seems to have more perceived importance and momentum. Somehow Cleveland feels like the largest forgotten city in the Nation.
Any thoughts on this?
Why is everyone so obsessed with malls??? Literally on every city forum there are people talking about how such and such neighborhood or such and such city is really in the dumps because some monstrosity mall finally mercifully closed....
Anyway, you come back to Cleveland and you decide you need to hit up Legacy Village and Crocker Park?! Did you actually go in to the city, or did you stay in suburbia? I'm betting largely on the latter. You really shouldn't be surprised that the people who hang out in Crocker Park don't really know anything about anything.
Nothing new? No construction? Seriously??? Some parts of downtown, University Circle, Ohio City, Tremont, Gordon Square, etc. are utterly unrecognizable (in a good way) from the 90s. Did you see the new additions to the Art Museum? Probably not. Did you go to East 4th street? Warehouse District? West 25th? Euclid Avenue? Did you check out the restaurants in Asiatown? Did you walk around Cleveland State?
As for your comparissons to other cities, Cleveland never was "above" Cincinnati. Maybe it felt like it was above Columbus before, but Cbus has always been the capital. You really think Pittsburgh "Feels" more important than Cleveland? Based on what? What does "feeling" important even mean?
I think you've got a weird childhood memory. When I was a kid, I remember Cleveland being dirty and smelly. It's not that bad now. Also, crime rates have gone way down compared to the 80s. I am not sure what you were expecting and I'm not sure how exactly you spent your time here... I just came back from Boston for a couple weeks for the first time in 9 months. Even in that time, it seems like a place that is getting more exciting.
-Join me on my morning commute and then tell me that there's no traffic.
-I think Southpark, Beachwood, and Great Northern Malls, Eton Collection, Highland Park, etc. would like to have a word with you.
-If everyone seemed old, you clearly didn't hang out in Downtown, University Circle, Tremont, Ohio City, or Gordon Square much. I suggest you get a better tour guide and/or smart phone and then make half an effort to get out of Brunstucky.
-You clearly do not read many relevant periodicals nor do you seem to know what new construction looks like.
-Many Californians, New Yorkers, Bostonians, etc. have always seen our neck of the woods as "fly over country." I wouldn't expect the typical California-based ignoramus to know much of anything except for what is happening in relatively small areas on each of the coasts.
-Your state did elect Arnold Schwarzenegger as their Governor not only once, but twice... and by a wide margin. 'nuff said.
Last edited by Cleveland_Collector; 01-01-2014 at 02:15 PM..
Nothing new? No construction? Seriously??? Some parts of downtown, University Circle, Ohio City, Tremont, Gordon Square, etc. are utterly unrecognizable (in a good way) from the 90s. Did you see the new additions to the Art Museum? Probably not. Did you go to East 4th street? Warehouse District? West 25th? Euclid Avenue? Did you check out the restaurants in Asiatown? Did you walk around Cleveland State?
Notice the OP never mentioned University Circle or any other city neighborhood in his/her post. It doesn't seem the OP even visited these neighborhoods which is why h/she missed out on the tons of construction all around the city. As for malls, some of the shops in Tower City Center in Downtown are struggling but the mall as a whole is not entirely dead. The only thing I'd agree with the OP is that for sure not a lot of people at either coasts know enough about Cleveland but then the same can be said about Cincy and Pittsburgh too. Rather, Detroit has got to be in the worse situation, far worse than any other city including Cleveland.
And yes I did get stuck in a traffic jam on both MLK Blvd and Interstate 90 while I was there. Cleveland definitely had more traffic than Buffalo, NY or Hartford, CT but then again it's a bigger city.
I grew up in Cleveland Heights. I'm very familiar with what's happening around University Circle, and the improvements going on along Euclid Ave are impressive. However, that pales into comparison with the loss of population and overall stagnation setting in across much of Cuyahoga County.
I grew up in Cleveland Heights. I'm very familiar with what's happening around University Circle, and the improvements going on along Euclid Ave are impressive. However, that pales into comparison with the loss of population and overall stagnation setting in across much of Cuyahoga County.
Apparently you aren't familiar with any of this though. What a joke. You came here to tell us "newsflash!!! Cleveland lost population, guys!!!"
I still don't give any value to statements made by people who hang out at Crocker Park. As far as I'm concerned, if you think the city sucks, it must be doing something right.
I'm not sure how you are assessing the "fallen stature" of Cleveland by looking at your stated "criteria" of: malls, neighborhoods, parks, museums, chain stores and restaurants, airport, highways, national media attention, etc. What exactly about these things are you looking at? Our museums are some of the best in the country. I'm not sure why chain stores and restaurants = stature. Personally, I consider cities that have a high ratio of chain stores/restaurants to be lower in stature than cities with lots of independent places. Our airport has improved since the 90's, so I don't get that one. Our highways are the same as in the 90's, and are probably no less crowded than they were in the 90's; were you driving during a holiday perhaps? Or maybe you're just used to California traffic, and Cleveland seems very light by comparison (which, by the way, I consider a good thing). Our parks are just as good as ever, plus we now have a national park, so I'm not sure how those show our "fallen stature". I'm really not sure how you're making your assessment at all. None of the categories you listed have gone down since the 90's, and several have gone up.
Apparently you aren't familiar with any of this though. What a joke. You came here to tell us "newsflash!!! Cleveland lost population, guys!!!"
I still don't give any value to statements made by people who hang out at Crocker Park. As far as I'm concerned, if you think the city sucks, it must be doing something right.
After the failure of so many malls, people finally realized that if you make a more upscale mall which charges more and has more upscale stores, it won't attract the types that cause malls to turn into a Randall Park or Euclid Square. Would I give value to a statement made by someone who "hangs out" at Crocker Park mall? No, (nor anyone else that "hangs out" in a mall) but I would give value to a statement made by an actual CONSUMER going to Crocker Park. Why? Because they more than likely have more sense than a "hang out" type that has been saying the same damn saying since the 1980's which is "Cleveland is coming around.". It's been over 3 decades and the same thing is still being said, and will continue to be said. Denial is a wonderful coping mechanism. Having a casino is another.
My original post wasn't meant to imply that I'm measuring Cleveland's current importance by the quality of its chain stores. However, back in the 80s, this might be news to you, but suburban development and chain stores were considered a sign of progress. The presence of a Hard Rock Cafe in your city (cheesy as it sounds) meant your city was on the map (ironically, Cleveland didn't get one until the mid 90s...when that fad passed).
Also, all of your Cleveland boosters keep screaming about how much development is happening around university circle, downtown, tremont, etc. Have any of you been to a city experiencing a real development boom...even Baltimore? What's happening around the Inner Harbor probably blows Cleveland out of the water (and Baltimore is still losing people). How about any evidence that anything along the following dimensions have improved for Cleveland:
- population change of the metro area in the past 20 years? I think Cleveland is among the few to have lost people
- # of Fortune 500 companies based in Cleveland. This number has certainly fallen in the last twenty years
- foreign or domestic immigration to Cleveland in the last twenty years. Compared to the rest of the nation, this is probably negligible
- change in real estate prices in the last two years. The rest of the country is seeing growth, and parts are booming. Not sure where Cleveland fits on this measure
And to the folks who keep mocking me for having visited Crocker park, where do you hang out? One of the three partly abandoned shops on west 25th in Ohio city? The same street that Ariel Castro lived on?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
