Richmond, VA or Cleveland, Ohio -- opinions needed (Dayton, Lakewood: best neighborhoods, apartments)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I have done my homework as to where I would like to relocate, researching on the internet about places to live where I could have most of my wishes fulfilled. I have lived mostly on the east coast, with a one year stint in California after I retired. I have moderate fixed income, not poor and not rich, and don’t qualify for affordable housing (my income is above the qualifying threshold), as it is defined by authorities. Based on my research, I have concluded that I could be happy in either Richmond, VA or Cleveland, Ohio. My rationale for favoring these two places is that both have downtowns that are walkable or accessible to public transportation, with Cleveland winning over Richmond in terms of more walkable neighborhoods and access to good public transportation. Cleveland wins in terms of public amenities, medical facilities, cultural attractions and shopping that are all accessible without a car. The only downside to Cleveland is the winter weather.
I’ve never been to Cleveland, so I am basing my opinion only on what I can gather through internet research. I have lived in NYC and DC for many years, its suburbs, and now the Eastern Shore of VA (great summers; no public transportation). I am looking to relocate to what I’ve been used to all of my adult, working life, i.e. downtown living without the need for a car. This would not be difficult if money were not an issue, of course. I want to limit my housing expense to $1200 maximum including basic utilities, i.e. water, sewer, trash; electric; gas (if that is required); cable/internet.
Here is my burning question for Cleveland residents: if I choose Cleveland, how bad really are winters there? How much is the average cost of heating/cooling in an all-electric apartment? How much is water, sewer, trash? I will be a single occupant and frugal with consumption of utilities. I keep my thermostat at 68 in the winter and 75-78 in the summer. I cook about 3 times a week. I am directing this question to Cleveland residents and would like their honest opinion on this matter. Whenever I call an apartment leasing company, all they can tell me is “it depends”. The Cleveland Power company gave an average of $108 for winter heating (reasonable I would say). I assume the average for electric at all other months of the year outside of winter will be less -- is that correct? All I want is the average and surely you can give me a good, ballpark figure, and more so if you do live in an apartment building and you are speaking from personal experience. However, I read in a forum that one person paid $400 for heating one winter – that is absolutely ridiculous. I don’t want that kind of surprise after I move in.
I admit West Side Market was a big draw for me. I momentarily forgot about the cold winters. I want to live as close as possible to it!
For Richmond residents, I have the same question about utilities. My research shows that in Richmond, quite a few nice apartment buildings offer FREE utilities, including electric and cable/internet, and usually WST (water sewer trash) is included in the rent for most apartments. That is definitely an advantage over Cleveland, where only WST is included and I am assuming it’s colder and winters are longer and therefore more expensive heating costs. My only beef with Richmond is the absence of a good supermarket in their downtown neighborhoods. It seems you have to drive to the suburbs to get any good shopping done. There are small markets but they tend to have limited offerings and their fresh produce farm markets tend to be Wholepaycheck-priced. I don't need gourmet prices to cook gourmet food.
Another burning question: in both places, what is the average annual renewal increase in apartment buildings? A 3 to 6% seems reasonable, but more than that I think will drive me back to the drawing board. I have done a detailed budget spreadsheet incorporating an increase up to 8% and I can afford it for the next 10 years or more, without working, if I am frugal and no devastating personal disaster changes the equation.
I have agonized over where to relocate and I am desperate for feedback from knowledgeable residents.
Last edited by hazfora; 10-15-2014 at 12:07 PM..
Reason: formatting error
I have a full sized house, have gas heat, and do not average my bills over the year. In the coldest winter months it can cost me $200 to $300 total, which includes my hot water use, cooking, and the base cost of service. That is also factoring in that my house is as airtight as a screen door, but I do keep the temperature fairly low because of that factor (lower than 68). In the summer months I obviously don't run the heat so my gas bill is minimal, like $30. But if you divide my actual cost of all of my gas usage across the entire year it probably averages out to maybe $100 a month or a little more.
Electric will be more expensive but your area to heat will be much smaller and in all likelihood your apartment will probably significantly more weather tight than my house. I would think that the estimate they gave you is probably reasonable given what you have told us. You might also consider putting in a programmable thermostat so you aren't running your heat at 68 when you're not in the house. In the summer, I personally don't feel that running air conditioning is a major issue except for maybe 2-3 weeks in the middle when it gets really, really hot. Otherwise I usually am fine with opening the windows or running a fan. So, if you just want to conserve money you could probably discount even bothering to turn it on (particularly if you are ok with a 78 degree room temp).
I would say if someone had a $400 bill they probably have a full house that wasn't insulated well. I've compared notes with people with larger, newer houses (better insulated and weatherproofed) and their gas bills related to heat are lower than mine.
I would put out that living in Cleveland without a car is doable but not nearly as convenient as DC or NYC. The Rapid has a limited reach (certain parts of the west side and east side, plus Shaker Heights and close to Beachwood, Lakewood, and Brook Park). You could cover most of your day to day needs just on the basis of that and take the bus to shopping malls (aside from the Avenue at Tower City which is Downtown but so-so on stores). There are people here that do choose to go carless and rely on RTA though.
I have a full sized house, have gas heat, and do not average my bills over the year. In the coldest winter months it can cost me $200 to $300 total, which includes my hot water use, cooking, and the base cost of service. That is also factoring in that my house is as airtight as a screen door, but I do keep the temperature fairly low because of that factor (lower than 68). In the summer months I obviously don't run the heat so my gas bill is minimal, like $30. But if you divide my actual cost of all of my gas usage across the entire year it probably averages out to maybe $100 a month or a little more.
I assume the $200-300 total include everything that's powered by gas, i.e. gas heat, hot water, cooking gas, as you wrote. How much is your electric bill -- presumably for anything powered by electric? BTW, I need to ask this stupid question because I've never owned a house: what powers hot water? Is it gas or electric? So in an all-electric building, everything will be powered by electric, correct?
- - - -
I would put out that living in Cleveland without a car is doable but not nearly as convenient as DC or NYC. The Rapid has a limited reach (certain parts of the west side and east side, plus Shaker Heights and close to Beachwood, Lakewood, and Brook Park). You could cover most of your day to day needs just on the basis of that and take the bus to shopping malls (aside from the Avenue at Tower City which is Downtown but so-so on stores). There are people here that do choose to go carless and rely on RTA though.
With internet shopping, I can order pretty much anything online these days, so I think I can do with an occasional shopping trip to the malls outside downtown Cleveland. I wish there were more responders out there who are actually taking public transportation as their regular mode of transportation. I wanted to know if it serves them adequately and they're happy with it. It seems people still prefer to drive even with a good public transportation system like Cleveland (I'm basing the "good" rating on my internet research, not firsthand information from real people).
Also, I'm aware that I shouldn't be comparing NYC or DC to any other city in the US, because both are blessed with an abundance of public transport. So I'd be happy with a better than average rating.
- - - - - - -
Thank you for your feedback. I'm getting closer to a decision.
Cleveland certainly is a great city to live. I recommend you move to Cleveland.
Our winters can get bad, but are usually moderate at most. It usually stays around 30 degrees in the winter, but it can tilt down or up once in a while. In Cleveland, there really is no average climate for the winter. A few years back on New Years it was 60 degrees! But this winter was one of the worst, and it dipped well into the negatives for a week. If you can handle a little cold and a little snow, then you'll be fine. Overall, the roads get cleaned up pretty well in the winter, so ice and snow shouldn't be a problem. But, there are those days that it rains and that water freezes over and causes major problems on the roads and freeways.
Since you're on a fixed income, I recommend you live in a neighborhood with lower costs. If you're going to buy a house or rent an apartment, I recommend you live in Cleveland Heights, Shaker Heights, or University Circle. They are neighborhoods that are right next to each other, and are one of the best neighborhoods in Cleveland. They all have tons of historic great looking houses and mansions, and they even have numerous historic apartment buildings. The rent in mot apartments there are usually lower, and on top of that, some of the best public transportation goes through there. 2 RTA Rapid lines go through there, along with several bus routes. The top nightlife areas there are Cedar-Lee, Van Aken, and Euclid-MLK Drive. In University Circle, there are tons of great museums and theaters, The Cleveland Clinic Main Campus, and Cleveland's Own Little Italy.
I highly recommend you come to Cleveland. You'll be glad you did.
There are good grocery stores in the center of Richmond. I'm within walking distance of a Kroger (8-9 blocks) downtown. Kroger may not be a specialty grocer, but it is a very nice one with an abundance of produce and ingredients necessary for gourmet cooking. Carytown has a very large Kroger too, In addition to the natural grocer, Elwood Thompson and specialty market, the Fresh Market. Both are fantastic stores.
A Whole Foods (whole paycheck) is being built on Broad Street near the Fan, downtown and VCU.
There are good grocery stores in the center of Richmond. I'm within walking distance of a Kroger (8-9 blocks) downtown. Kroger may not be a specialty grocer, but it is a very nice one with an abundance of produce and ingredients necessary for gourmet cooking. Carytown has a very large Kroger too, In addition to the natural grocer, Elwood Thompson and specialty market, the Fresh Market. Both are fantastic stores.
A Whole Foods (whole paycheck) is being built on Broad Street near the Fan, downtown and VCU.
I don't think 2 grocery stores is a good reason to move to Richmond. We have several Whole Foods in Cleveland, along with Giant Eagle, Marc's, Heinens, etc, one for every neighborhood.
I find both cities appealing, but for different reasons.
If you want to be close to the beach, work in finance, and don't mind a longer season of heat/mugginess, Richmond probably comes out ahead. If you like having 4 real seasons and want to have local professional sports, Cleveland is the winner. Cleveland very clearly also has an edge in medical care if you need specialty care as you age.
Utility wise, we lived in a multi-family house that was south-facing. If I recall our winter heating bills were around $150/mo [averaged over the whole winter - a serious cold snap can drive it up any given month] but that's with 68 daytime and 58 or so overnight. There are many more months you'll use heat than months you're likely to use A/C (parts of July/Aug and maybe a week in June or Sept).
Personally I don't find Cleveland winter to be that bad, but then I've lived much colder places - compared to CA it would be an adjustment.
We lived in a Dayton suburb for a year. Otherwise, I've lived in Santa Barbara my entire 45 years. Yes, the winter was not the same as it is here, but it was fun for us to have snow! I used to visit my grandparents in Solon and CH Falls when I was younger and I always asked my mom to visit during winter break- for the snow. There were lots of cold days during our year there in '06. We used up all 5 snow days during the school year. However, your cold is a different cold than here. I wore shorts many times during snow flurries- it did not feel that bad. Near the ocean here, if it's 45, it's freakin' cold!
The humidity was the toughest adjustment. Lately, we've had climate changes here and there are more humid days than ever. We will get out of our car and say, "Ohio!"
The changes of seasons were awesome! It reminded me of a rebirth. Here, it's 75-88 the next 10 days...not what you want in October...Happy Halloween, kids. Here's some water to keep you hydrated in those costumes. Wait! There is no water! :0
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I want to live as close as possible to it!
