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Cleveland is incredibly unfriendly to businesses and entrepreneurs. End the ridiculous taxation and you'll see that improve. But looks like the city is doubling down, so for the time being, I don't see that getting better. I don't see how spending even more money in an impoverished city, that likes keeping money out, would help.
I feel that this puts MORE urgency onto the people that can change things for the better, which is almost invariably the city's private institutions. Just Case, CMA, and the Orchestra have endowments that total nearly 3 billion dollars. I'm just saying that if they really thought it was necessary, they could come up with the money. But it's obvious to me that it's not really necessary. Development has been, and should be, focusing on development in the actual area- more and denser housing is a great thing.
What's the combined top state and local income rate in Boston compared with Cleveland? I suspect Boston is higher.
I'll bet the educational resources in Greater Boston and tech heft were the top consideration for GE in its relocation decision.
Yes, the universities were a big draw. That and they were in a coring Connecticut suburb. I don't blame them for wanting to move. Taxes were also set to go up in Connecticut, so they wanted out.
Yes, the universities were a big draw. That and they were in a coring Connecticut suburb. I don't blame them for wanting to move. Taxes were also set to go up in Connecticut, so they wanted out.
Even though the Opportunity Corridor goes through a very poor, and largely vacant, area of town, it seems like a bad deal. Why spend this kind of money ($330M in taxpayer money), when it's not that difficult to drive from the downtown area, or from an Inner Belt exit ramp, along Carnegie Ave with it's timed traffic lights? The drive from downtown takes all of 10 minutes or less during non-peak hours. Maybe 15 during rush hour. For that, Cleveland needs this road?
You don't get it. This area is a wasteland. Poverty,drugs,crime , its basically miles of abandantment. anyone that could leave has left decades ago. No development of any kind , let alone any tod along the red line. This is the best chance these neighborhoods have of reinventing themselves. If that happens TOD will follow.
And a road that functions as a way for people in cars to speed through the bad areas as fast as possible is the best way to fix the problem? This seems to basically be a bypass. Can you name a single highway or major roadway ever built in the urban core of any city that actually helped revitalize adjacent urban areas? And TOD doesn't happen where there is no transit. Cars are not within the realm of TOD.
There's a ton of money in the circle. If businesses, hospitals universities and museums had any will, IE it made sense and was ultimately profitable to do so, they'd get the ball rolling. But that's not going to happen you're right. Why? Because it's a bad idea. Sure, people will take it if someone else pays. Kamms, you're welcome to buy me a Lamborghini, but I'm not going to buy one myself, for example.
I'm not anti highway per second, I'm anti bad idea. Just don't see how this helps anything. Just seems like welfare for rich University circle institutions that don't need help. Just my opinion.
I don't get it, either. UC seems to be doing great from everything I've seen, and it's doing so without the OC. This seems to be one of those times when an urban neighborhood gets popular enough that the car loving suburbanites take notice and then realize it doesn't match their lifestyle choices, so they start demanding it adapt to what they want instead of appreciating the urban characteristics that made it popular to begin with. I've seen this same thing in Columbus.
Cleveland is incredibly unfriendly to businesses and entrepreneurs. End the ridiculous taxation and you'll see that improve. But looks like the city is doubling down, so for the time being, I don't see that getting better. I don't see how spending even more money in an impoverished city, that likes keeping money out, would help.
I feel that this puts MORE urgency onto the people that can change things for the better, which is almost invariably the city's private institutions. Just Case, CMA, and the Orchestra have endowments that total nearly 3 billion dollars. I'm just saying that if they really thought it was necessary, they could come up with the money. But it's obvious to me that it's not really necessary. Development has been, and should be, focusing on development in the actual area- more and denser housing is a great thing.
I don't think that's true anymore. Maybe in certain suburbs like Cleveland Heights, but Cleveland is becoming more business friendly -- giving tax abatements, loosening the strict zoning codes, no more corruption, I don't see Cleveland saying "no" to development like they used to.
You don't get it. This area is a wasteland. Poverty,drugs,crime , its basically miles of abandantment. anyone that could leave has left decades ago. No development of any kind , let alone any tod along the red line. This is the best chance these neighborhoods have of reinventing themselves. If that happens TOD will follow.
So the chance of that neighborhood improving triples from .01% to .03%? Great! You've now convinced me that it's definitely worth the $330 million price tag then!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81
I don't get it, either. UC seems to be doing great from everything I've seen, and it's doing so without the OC. This seems to be one of those times when an urban neighborhood gets popular enough that the car loving suburbanites take notice and then realize it doesn't match their lifestyle choices, so they start demanding it adapt to what they want instead of appreciating the urban characteristics that made it popular to begin with. I've seen this same thing in Columbus.
Pretty close to reality, although in fairness the Opportunity Corridor won't change much about the fabric of the actual neighborhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms
I love it. Get the west-siders back to the Chicago side of town while the East Siders stay on the New York side of town.
What happened on the East Side 50 years didn't happen on the West Side until it got stuck with all the East Side refugees.
UC will boom even more with access via the OC.
"Chicago side of town?" You give yourselves too much credit. More like the "Des Moines side of town."
And let's be clear about who these "refugees" are. You going to come clean or do I have to say it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms
The West Shoreway is a great example of what a ''corridor'' can do for an adjacent area. The only real difference with the OC is that there is no adjacent area left.
So you're comparing what a "corridor" supposedly has done for an already somewhat developed neighborhood to what one might do for a neighborhood that looks worse than Berlin in 1945? And let's not forget to mention that the West Shoreway has a price tag less than a third of what this boondoggle is slated to cost (which will almost certainly rise as they're building it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms
You refuse to concede that Cleveland has had a population and business loss? Got it (but don't get it). The second sentence makes no sense...''revitalize every square mile...target limit resources to build on areas already showing signs of improvement''. Is this supposed to be an unknown fact? This is what Cleveland and any other city do to stem decline. In Cleveland's case, is was a collapse, not a decline, and the city is targeting resources on (the few) areas showing signs of improvement. That's what the OC is, in part, about. Targeting access to UC, an area already showing signs of improvement.
No, of course Cleveland overall has had a loss in population and in business. The problem* that I refuse to concede exists, the one that I don't think needs a "solution" (as you put it) is that certain neighborhoods, like some on the near east/southeast side, need something done to improve them. But again, this whole line of discussion is a red herring, because this project is not about improving those neighborhoods, nor will it improve those neighborhoods. This is about building a glorified freeway and prettying it up with some neighborhood improvement BS.
*I can't call something that is of little consequence a "problem."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms
Not sure who the ''you people'' are but you should hope that those just discovering the beauty and wonder that has existed in UC includes west siders, east siders, and the tens of millions of people living within a day's drive of Cleveland. Then the rest of country and, dare I say it, the world. The Rock Hall could and should be a much bigger international draw.
What then happens, you have a tourist industry; this is when people from outside the area spend their money in your area. The ripple effects can be quite beneficial and the plan is that the OC will develop commercial and residential properties, and just the standard ''projects'' either.
First of all, many of those people already have discovered it, which is why it's booming. Second of all, except for one group on that list, the Opportunity Corridor doesn't do much to help anyone else discover or access the neighborhood. It's a little late in the game to be claiming that the Opportunity Corridor is needed to put University Circle on the map. It's already on the map.
Last edited by Yac; 02-22-2016 at 04:54 AM..
Reason: 4 posts in a row merged
Thanks for confirming that Old Cleveland is alive and well; the whole east side gravitates to NY, west side to Chicago is an old school device used by WASPs and Jews in the Heights to disassociate themselves from the commoners on the west side (aka blue collar ethnic Catholics). Des Moines is even more condescending, but thanks again for sharing.
Cleveland is not booming, although this latest ''boom'' is the best since it's based largely on residential development. Cleveland is discovering its lakefront and the west shore way redesign and lower speed limit is a benefit to and assistance with this development.
What's going on in Cleveland is the type of development any city and metro area of its size should already have. Cleveland metro will not recover its lost jobs for a couple more years; the other two C cities in Ohio already have.
Cleveland city population may actually have an increase by 2020, provided the development in the pipeline goes forward but until the city and region are growing will it be safe to declare a ''comeback''; only when there is strong growth in jobs and population, city, metro and region, will it be safe to declare a boom.
As for the Opportunity Corridor, it's being built, so everyone should now hope for the best. To do otherwise will only perpetuate your Old Cleveland negativity.
Instead of referring to the west side as Des Moines, you should be more concerned with Cleveland trying to attract residents and jobs even as it wants to increase its residents' income tax. Then again, you don't live in Cleveland, you're in the Heights perpetuating old stereotypes. Good luck trying to re-invent Cleveland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17
So you're comparing what a "corridor" supposedly has done for an already somewhat developed neighborhood to what one might do for a neighborhood that looks worse than Berlin in 1945? And let's not forget to mention that the West Shoreway has a price tag less than a third of what this boondoggle is slated to cost (which will almost certainly rise as they're building it).
No, of course Cleveland overall has had a loss in population and in business. The problem* that I refuse to concede exists, the one that I don't think needs a "solution" (as you put it) is that certain neighborhoods, like some on the near east/southeast side, need something done to improve them. But again, this whole line of discussion is a red herring, because this project is not about improving those neighborhoods, nor will it improve those neighborhoods. This is about building a glorified freeway and prettying it up with some neighborhood improvement BS.
*I can't call something that is of little consequence a "problem."
First of all, many of those people already have discovered it, which is why it's booming. Second of all, except for one group on that list, the Opportunity Corridor doesn't do much to help anyone else discover or access the neighborhood. It's a little late in the game to be claiming that the Opportunity Corridor is needed to put University Circle on the map. It's already on the map.
...and armed thugs have already discovered Little Italy. I love the vagueness in your statements...''need something done to improve them...''. Really? No kidding. What are your proposals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17
Pretty close to reality, although in fairness the Opportunity Corridor won't change much about the fabric of the actual neighborhood.
I hope the OC doesn't work. Big waste of money. Typical Cleveland loser-land; hopefully it will be held up as a national joke to go along with all the other Cleveland-isms the whole country enjoys. More Cleveland ridicule, just what the city needs.
Don't worry, when Jeff Johnson is mayor, he'll know what to do to fix the city's woes. He'll be pro-transit and be real attuned to developing areas for white professionals.
Johnson opposed the OC; any guess as to why?
Last edited by Yac; 02-22-2016 at 04:55 AM..
Reason: 3 posts in a row merged
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