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Do I understand some of you correctly? If little Johnny or Janey goes to college, s/he won't want to drive a garbage truck or clean toilets, so we shouldn't encourage everyone to go to college? There might be some reason why some people shouldn't go to college, but that's not it, IMO.
The desire to become educated and "worldly" should come from one's self and can be pursued for free. I did not need any prodding to read Turgenov, Dostoevsky and Joyce. Let us be honest, most people do not care about intellectual pursuits - they care about what will materially benefit them the most. Humans are rather predictable. Do most 18 year-olds look back in fondness upon their time spent in classrooms discussing topics and writing essays about them? No. Nobody f-ing gives a ****. For all of your exhortations for the next generation to become "culturally-aware", I guarantee you that your children and their compatriots do not give an iota of caring (even for a second) to such things. When I was 18 you know what I wanted to do? Party and **** as many girls as I could.
The desire to become educated and "worldly" should come from one's self and can be pursued for free. I did not need any prodding to read Turgenov, Dostoevsky and Joyce. Let us be honest, most people do not care about intellectual pursuits - they care about what will materially benefit them the most. Humans are rather predictable. Do most 18 year-olds look back in fondness upon their time spent in classrooms discussing topics and writing essays about them? No. Nobody f-ing gives a ****. For all of your exhortations for the next generation to become "culturally-aware", I guarantee you that your children and their compatriots do not give an iota of caring (even for a second) to such things. When I was 18 you know what I wanted to do? Party and **** as many girls as I could.
Then why did you stay in school, instead of dropping out at 16? Are you sure that you never learned anything in that school you were forced to go to, except what you would have taught yourself anyway? And nobody else does, either?
Isn't it an odd coincidence, that countries with very low school attendance also have very few people who have been driven to read 'without any prodding', and very few people who now, like you and me, enjoy 'discussing topics and writing essays'?
You edited my post. You left off this: That said, I don't think you need a high school education, or even a middle school education, to drive a garbage truck. You can probably get all the education you need for such a job by the end of 5th grade.
I think you can get all the other skills by the end of high school. The point is, education isn't just about jobs.
I think we are going in circles. Not sure why this point is not coming across.
Though "general" education is not about jobs, for many, jobs are very important to college graduates, because many are on the hook in financing their education. Jobs provides a means to pay for their degrees. So, the real point is, future employment is an aspect for college for the majority. Again, I am not saying that college is just about jobs. I am saying that it is an important factor.
Also, one can encourage education without encouraging everyone to go to college. Again, education can continue for anyone even outside the walls of a traditional liberal arts college. Why does taking classes always have to be done so in order to obtain some diploma? Does reading a book really require paying someone to supervise you? Does learning always have to fit into some type of curriculum?
Last edited by Thomas_Thumb; 09-01-2010 at 09:37 AM..
President Obama recently emphasized the importance of a college-educated workforce. He stopped short of, yet alluded to, the popular goal of many educational leaders of all children going to college.
What would the unintended consequences be if this goal were achieved? It is hard to imagine that anyone would want to work as a cashier at Walmart, a truck driver, a construction worker, or work any other job that does not currently require an advanced degree.
It's time to stop the rhetoric and PC statements and focus on the goal of providing opportunity. This involves a structure that allows the learner to pursue the education and training necessary that matches their ability, aptitude, motivation and interest with the needs of society.
For many this may have little or nothing to do with college.
It may result in the garbage collector (or whatever PC term they are called now) making a fortune because there will be so few of them and they will be in demand whereas a teacher or lawyer will be a dime a dozen, lowering their pay.
The desire to become educated and "worldly" should come from one's self and can be pursued for free. I did not need any prodding to read Turgenov, Dostoevsky and Joyce. Let us be honest, most people do not care about intellectual pursuits - they care about what will materially benefit them the most. Humans are rather predictable. Do most 18 year-olds look back in fondness upon their time spent in classrooms discussing topics and writing essays about them? No. Nobody f-ing gives a ****. For all of your exhortations for the next generation to become "culturally-aware", I guarantee you that your children and their compatriots do not give an iota of caring (even for a second) to such things. When I was 18 you know what I wanted to do? Party and **** as many girls as I could.
You probably went to a state school with crappy alumni donations.
The desire to become educated and "worldly" should come from one's self and can be pursued for free. I did not need any prodding to read Turgenov, Dostoevsky and Joyce. Let us be honest, most people do not care about intellectual pursuits - they care about what will materially benefit them the most. Humans are rather predictable. Do most 18 year-olds look back in fondness upon their time spent in classrooms discussing topics and writing essays about them? No. Nobody f-ing gives a ****. For all of your exhortations for the next generation to become "culturally-aware", I guarantee you that your children and their compatriots do not give an iota of caring (even for a second) to such things. When I was 18 you know what I wanted to do? Party and **** as many girls as I could.
Actually, a lot of 18-22 year olds love to discuss the meaning of life and stuff like that. The rest of us, having discussed such issues to death, are bored with it. Of course, many of them like to party, too!
It may result in the garbage collector (or whatever PC term they are called now) making a fortune because there will be so few of them and they will be in demand whereas a teacher or lawyer will be a dime a dozen, lowering their pay.
Good observation. Fortunately, not everyone is college material, a fact, conveniently, left out of this argument so I don't think there will be a shortage. ... But I do think they should be paid well because they do society an invaluale service.
Good observation. Fortunately, not everyone is college material, a fact, conveniently, left out of this argument so I don't think there will be a shortage. ... But I do think they should be paid well because they do society an invaluale service.
The mantra "Not everyone is college material" has been heard loud and clear throughout this discussion. In fact, it seems like many (not necessarily you) feel almost no one is college material except themselves and a select few.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 09-02-2010 at 07:58 AM..
]The desire to become educated and "worldly" should come from one's self and can be pursued for free.
Why? Why shouldn't schools encourage this desire and have programs to cultivate it? When I was in grade school, I would have told you that education was "dumb" and that school was "boring". Yet, I hung in there because of prodding from teachers and my parents and ended up with a graduate degree and a job with a six figure income. I'm saying that sometimes that inner desire to be educated has to be cultivated by others. The student plays a role, but so do his parents and his teachers.
Quote:
No. Nobody f-ing gives a ****. For all of your exhortations for the next generation to become "culturally-aware", I guarantee you that your children and their compatriots do not give an iota of caring (even for a second) to such things. When I was 18 you know what I wanted to do? Party and **** as many girls as I could.
There's a large segment of the population that thinks that way. However, people are far more fluid than you realize. Some people say that and don't really mean it. Others say that mean it, but later change their minds. What I found was that being intellectual and culturally aware has not only been fun, its helped me be a better lawyer.
Look, you aren't totally off base. I accept the notion you don't have to go to college to be educated. I accept the notion that *some* people who go to college are probably wasting their time there. I accept the notion that some jobs shouldn't require college degrees.
The reason we have colleges, specific course requirements, and tests is that need some method of assessing what is being taught and what is being learned. For all your complaints about BS degrees from "third and fourth tier institutions" at least those degrees represent something tangible.
Finally, I'd say the students who are in those programs are a better judge of whether those degrees will be of help to them in the future than you are.
The mantra "Not everyone is college material" has been heard loud and clear throughout this discussion. In fact, it seems like many (not necessarily you) feel almost no one is college material except themselves and a select few.
Personally, I'd put it at about the top 25%. I'd hazard a guess that, at least, the bottom 50% are not college material but that's really ok. College is not and should not be the only path to success in life. Also, there are different kinds of learning.
My brother is my inellectual equal. In fact, if you look at test scores, he's smarter than me. He flunked out of college. For me, it was a cake walk. He dropped out of engineering school and built a successful career as an auto body mechanic. He's very good at what he does. Highly skilled and his intelligence shines. I graduated with highest honors and went on to have a semi successful career as an engineer (not successful enough to stay in engineering). We are both successful in our own right. Neither is better than the other. We are just different. He couldn't learn what he needed to learn in college and I couldn't learn what I needed to learn without college.
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