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Actually most of the truly successful people I've known in my career have had non-business degrees.
Yeah sure, because we all know someone majoring in English
in 2011 is going to be a true success. Unless they have skills not
related to that major they aren't going far.
Yeah sure, because we all know someone majoring in English
in 2011 is going to be a true success. Unless they have skills not
related to that major they aren't going far.
Art and English are nothing like Philosophy, I was speaking only of Philosophy. I never suggested that every Philosophy student is good at mathematics (heck, not every philosophy student is good in philosophy), instead, the same sorts of skills that make someone good at Philosophy can transfer to being good at mathematics. They are, at the root, the same skill.
I took philosophy classes in college and ended up finding the subject an absurd waste of time.
"Thought experiments" and "if you think this-- it is this"... Skepticism and the like. It was honestly just a big waste of time. I'm not sure what philosophy contributes to society-- I certainly saw no beneficial contribution.
Now engineering I found more intellectual. You see engineering is all about problem solving at its core. Not "plugging and chugging" equations as you seem to think-- but developing unique solutions to real world problems.
I think saying that engineering doesn't take intellectualism is quite laughable-- the truth is, it is the opposite.
I took philosophy classes in college and ended up finding the subject an absurd waste of time.
"Thought experiments" and "if you think this-- it is this"... Skepticism and the like. It was honestly just a big waste of time. I'm not sure what philosophy contributes to society-- I certainly saw no beneficial contribution.
Right and this is a symptoms of a narrow education, you're unaware of the history of human knowledge and how the various pieces fit together.
Also, just to note, so called thought experiments (gedankenexperiment) are an tool used in science as well as philosophy. In both cases its not used to prove something, instead to explore consequences of a theory/hypothesis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclone8570
You see engineering is all about problem solving at its core. Not "plugging and chugging" equations as you seem to think-- but developing unique solutions to real world problems.
I never suggested engineering is "plugging and chugging", rather that as for as mathematics is concerned engineering is about "plugging and chugging".
I also didn't suggest that there is something anti-intellectual about engineering in itself, just that engineers (the people) tend to be anti-intellectual. Their anti-intellectualism is what tends to attract them to engineering in the first place.
Anyhow, engineers certainly solve problems, but they solve problems with existing tool sets. They aren't pushing human knowledge to new levels, they aren't discovering new things about the world. Engineers apply existing science, mathematics, etc to real world problems. Of course the distinction isn't entirely black and white, there are people that have their foot in both worlds. But most, essentially at the lower level, do not.
Right and this is a symptoms of a narrow education, you're unaware of the history of human knowledge and how the various pieces fit together.
Also, just to note, so called thought experiments (gedankenexperiment) are an tool used in science as well as philosophy. In both cases its not used to prove something, instead to explore consequences of a theory/hypothesis.
I never suggested engineering is "plugging and chugging", rather that as for as mathematics is concerned engineering is about "plugging and chugging".
I also didn't suggest that there is something anti-intellectual about engineering in itself, just that engineers (the people) tend to be anti-intellectual. Their anti-intellectualism is what tends to attract them to engineering in the first place.
Anyhow, engineers certainly solve problems, but they solve problems with existing tool sets. They aren't pushing human knowledge to new levels, they aren't discovering new things about the world. Engineers apply existing science, mathematics, etc to real world problems. Of course the distinction isn't entirely black and white, there are people that have their foot in both worlds. But most, essentially at the lower level, do not.
One thing you haven't learned in your philosophy class is common sense. Sure, philosophy talks about some very grandiose concepts-- but you must realize that this is just talk-- it leads to nothing. Philosophers go round and round with their talk talk talk, but nothing ever comes from it. This is why I found philosophy quite absurd. I'd rather spend my time actually doing-- rather than talking about things and doing nothing.
And now a joke--
Question: What do philosophy majors do for a living?
Answer: They sit around and think about why they're poor.
One thing you haven't learned in your philosophy class is common sense. Sure, philosophy talks about some very grandiose concepts-- but you must realize that this is just talk-- it leads to nothing. Philosophers go round and round with their talk talk talk, but nothing ever comes from it. This is why I found philosophy quite absurd. I'd rather spend my time actually doing-- rather than talking about things and doing nothing.
Are you trying to demonstrate how little you know about Western thought?
The sentiments you're expressing right now are fundamentally wrong, yet you sincerely believe them. At the end of the day some people aren't just good at abstract subject matter, similarly some people aren't that good at more concrete subject matter. Good thing there are places for both sorts of people, but it takes a special sort of myopia to deny the other groups contributions to society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclone8570
Question: What do philosophy majors do for a living? Answer: They sit around and think about why they're poor.
Except that Philosophy majors do okay salary wise, even higher than some sciences
Philosophy majors have underlying skills that are very attractive for numerous positions, what they often lack is specific domain knowledge, once obtained they become very employable.
Anyhow, its one of the best majors in terms of developing a general skill set that can be applied to numerous areas, it also provides the most well-rounded education.
Are you trying to demonstrate how little you know about Western thought?
The sentiments you're expressing right now are fundamentally wrong, yet you sincerely believe them. At the end of the day some people aren't just good at abstract subject matter, similarly some people aren't that good at more concrete subject matter. Good thing there are places for both sorts of people, but it takes a special sort of myopia to deny the other groups contributions to society.
I'm just telling it like it is. A student would be ill advised to major in philosophy as far as job prospects go. No way around that-- it is just the way the world works.
Speaking of which, I'm curious from your posts what you actually do for a living? I know you don't wish to save for retirement (a foolish idea if you ask 95% of people), so what are you doing that you love so much you want to keep working forever?
I'm just telling it like it is. A student would be ill advised to major in philosophy as far as job prospects go. No way around that-- it is just the way the world works.
No, you're just telling it how you believe it is, reality has a different take on matters. Although a rigorous education in philosophy provides both moderately well-rounded education and a desirable skill-set, it doesn't set up students for particular careers. I have never suggested it has. But that doesn't mean philosophy majors have no job prospects, philosophy students just need to figure out how to apply their skills in a way that is going to generate income in the economy.
The idea that philosophy students have poor job prospects isn't borne out by the data, philosophy students have one of the highest median incomes in terms of so called liberal arts and have higher incomes than some sciences as well. That is very telling, unlike English, History, etc Philosophy majors can't easily become teachers so their incomes are largely derived from the private sector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclone8570
Speaking of which, I'm curious from your posts what you actually do for a living? I know you don't wish to save for retirement (a foolish idea if you ask 95% of people), so what are you doing that you love so much you want to keep working forever?
Right, I find the idea of retirement a bit strange. But its not that I don't want to save for retirement, rather that I don't have have any desire to retire in the first place.
In terms of what I do, I'm involved in business, in particular I own, manage and work on the technological aspects of them.
In many ways, this whole debate is quite silly. Fact is, no matter what one's degree is, it serves mainly as a ticket to the dance--that's all. It is what one learns subsequently that usually will determine whether one is a success or failure--regardless of the degree or the career.
I've seen a whole lot of successful people in many different disciplines in my life--they all have pretty much the same 5 basic skills:
1. To ability to continually learn and improve their knowledge and skill sets--throughout their lives.
2. The ability to communicate effectively--both verbally and in writing.
3. The ability to "think critically"--and make substantially more good, well-reasoned decisions than bad ones.
4. The ability to teach others.
5. The ability to manage and motivate others.
If one learns a complex technical skill in college, and then learns to communicate and manage subsequently, that is one path. If one is trained as a teacher in college, then subsequently learns a technical skill later, that's another path. And so on.
Truth is, many, many successful people wind up working in a discipline seemingly totally removed from their college degree. I also believe that there should be a "liberal arts" component in any degree program--because there is more to learning and life than just a career specialty. As an example, my father was a degreed mechanical AND electrical engineer, but some of his college study was in music--enough so that he worked his way through college and for several years after as a professional jazz musician. He was as comfortable talking engineering with other engineers as he was "gigging" at night in the jazz clubs. He also learned a whole lot about management, teaching, and communication along the way--enough so that he owned and managed his own successful business for decades, spoke and wrote eloquently, and mentored a number of employees who went on to successful careers themselves.
My degree was in Business--from a liberal arts college where I also had a minor in Economics, with a strong emphasis also in Geography. Since then, I've worked in several disciplines often unrelated or only peripherally related to my degree. I have no teaching degree, but much of my work in the last decade-plus has centered on training and teaching. I don't have a law degree, but I've worked in legal matters enough that I have personally written language that is now part of state statutes--I'm respected enough in my particular areas of legal expertise that attorneys will ask my advice on some legal matters in that area. I don't have a computer science degree, but I've presented professional papers at the national level on adoption of computer technologies in my career specialty. I don't have an English or literature degree, but I'm a published author. I don't have a degree in Speech or Communication, but I, as part of my work, speak publicly on a regular basis.
I don't say all of this to make a "Gee, look how great I am" statement. I'm really a pretty ordinary guy who, by necessity has had to learn a lot of stuff along the way in order to make a living, and because--for me--learning new things is just plain fun. I'm still learning new stuff--in fact, in a few weeks I will be off to learn some neat new stuff germane to my current work. It'll be a hoot.
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