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To some extent I agree, but saying you want to attend grad school as an undergrad is much easier and simpler than actually doing it. I actually thought I wanted to attend grad school, but after 4 yrs of college I'd had enough of higher ed.
In terms of professors, lawyers, and other jobs requiring post-graduate education, many are extremely competitive: Just getting a law degree or PHd in a liberal arts field doesn't mean you'll actually get a job as a lawyer or professor. There are many law grads than there are full-time lawyer jobs: Many wind up spending years temping before they find a permanent position. Perhaps more significantly, grad school is extremely expensive. Many students who aren't lucky enough to have rich parents wind up hindered for life by college loan debt.
In terms of office workers and civil servants, yes many of those jobs require a BA, but they just aren't as many as there once were. Many of those jobs are being automated out of existence, and there are many persons with BAs (esp here in Seattle and many other large cities) than there are openings in those jobs.
Also, purely in terms of bang-for-buck, skilled trades pay better than most office jobs, and the education is much less expensive.
That's a largely antiquated perspective. Did you check the link? 70% of growth will be in jobs that require less than a bachelors degree.
Sure, some jobs require a college degree, but certainly not many.
Many blue collar jobs have been automated out of existence as well.
Unemployment is actually HIGHER among people who don't have degrees.
Those who regularly pay their student loans but who work full time in education or the government can have their loans FORGIVEN AFTER 10 YEARS.
So according to the stats from the federal government, those with out a bachelor's degree EARN LESS and have MUCH higher rates of unemployment than those with a bachelors degree. Numbers don't lie. I get that you hate school but people with better educations generally earn more and have better benefits than people with high school diplomas.
And I think you know people with better educations generally earn more. And yes with grad school one may very well need help from one's parents. This disparaging of education is a defense mechanism. You convince yourself blue collar people are doing better than they are to defend yourself against painful realities.
If one wants to earn a lot of money in the US, one often needs ADVANCED degrees. Blue collar jobs are capped at a low level and there is no advancement. The same isn't true of professional and graduate degrees. But of course you really already know this.
So according to the stats from the federal government, those with out a bachelor's degree EARN LESS and have MUCH higher rates of unemployment than those with a bachelors degree. Numbers don't lie. I get that you hate school but people with better educations generally earn more and have better benefits than people with high school diplomas.
And I think you know people with better educations generally earn more. And yes with grad school one may very well need help from one's parents. This disparaging of education is a defense mechanism. You convince yourself blue collar people are doing better than they are to defend yourself against painful realities.
If one wants to earn a lot of money in the US, one often needs ADVANCED degrees. Blue collar jobs are capped at a low level and there is no advancement. The same isn't true of professional and graduate degrees. But of course you really already know this.
Those stats don't reveal income related to types of degrees. Sure, engineering majors have a high income, but anthropology majors? Not so much.
That's the problem. Those with practical degrees earn significantly more, but most persons with liberal arts degrees only earn slightly more than those with a HS degree.
So according to the stats from the federal government, those with out a bachelor's degree EARN LESS and have MUCH higher rates of unemployment than those with a bachelors degree. Numbers don't lie. I get that you hate school but people with better educations generally earn more and have better benefits than people with high school diplomas.
And I think you know people with better educations generally earn more. And yes with grad school one may very well need help from one's parents. This disparaging of education is a defense mechanism. You convince yourself blue collar people are doing better than they are to defend yourself against painful realities.
If one wants to earn a lot of money in the US, one often needs ADVANCED degrees. Blue collar jobs are capped at a low level and there is no advancement. The same isn't true of professional and graduate degrees. But of course you really already know this.
You feel superior to those who work in blue collar occupations? That elitist bent that you seem to have is common amongst so-called 'educated' persons. Wanting to be part of some elite class or part of some special fraternity is understandable considering human ego. And maybe you deserve to feel that way. I don't know you or your circumstances. But do you really think your academic credentials elevate your basic human worth?
You feel superior to those who work in blue collar occupations? That elitist bent that you seem to have is common amongst so-called 'educated' persons. Wanting to be part of some elite class or part of some special fraternity is understandable considering human ego. And maybe you deserve to feel that way. I don't know you or your circumstances. But do you really think your academic credentials elevate your basic human worth?
The pay is better and I am not doing physically demand, dirty, or dangerous work. And I have more time off too.
Those stats don't reveal income related to types of degrees. Sure, engineering majors have a high income, but anthropology majors? Not so much.
That's the problem. Those with practical degrees earn significantly more, but most persons with liberal arts degrees only earn slightly more than those with a HS degree.
Not at all true.
At a minimum liberal arts majors often become teachers. Teachers make well above what people with high school degrees make.
Most liberal arts majors go to grad school (myself included).
Once nice thing about teaching as you have a lot of time off, meaning you can do other JOBS.
Other liberal arts majors become lawyers who make well above what people with high school diplomas, make or even get office jobs. Basic assistant and clerical jobs often require BA's and even they make more than what people in low level service and manual labor jobs get.
So we've established you guys all know very well college grads make more money than high school grads. College grads tend to come from wealthier families too, as someone has to SPEND the MONEY on the college education.
So you guys are making up a defensive mechanism. Lying to yourself and convincing yourself college graduates won't make more money when they do.
Many blue collar jobs have been automated out of existence as well.
At a minimum liberal arts majors often become teachers. Teachers make well above what people with high school degrees make.
Most liberal arts majors go to grad school (myself included).
It's mainly the less-skilled blue collar jobs like manufacturing/assembly that have been and continue to be downsized. While the more highly skill jobs like electrician, carpenter, plumber, HVAC, etc might eventually be automated, that isn't likely to happen anytime soon. In addition to being highly skilled, these jobs also require significant physical dexterity and flexibility. Technology capable of replacing human workers in these fields probably won't emerge in at least 2-3 decades.
Liberal arts majors become teachers? In many states that's not an option with only a BA. I have a psychology BA, and don't meet the standards for any kind of significant teaching job here in WA state. Maybe it's different in some places, but here everyone and their mother has a BA, and there are also quite a few MAs and PhDs as well.
Most liberal arts major go to grad school? Do you have any stats so support this statement? When I graduated in 2000, most students didn't.
Even a graduate degree in a liberal arts field doesn't mean you'll be able to find a full-time college teaching job (community college or otherwise). Full-time college level teaching jobs are extremely competitive, esp since colleges are hiring more adjunct/part-time faculty to avoid paying benefits.
Sure, if you have an MA in high school subject (history, English, etc) you can become a HS teacher, but that sounds like utter hell to me. Don't get me wrong. It's an important job and I have tremendous respect for good HS teachers. But to me a public HS teacher seems like one of the worst jobs imaginable.
It's mainly the less-skilled blue collar jobs like manufacturing/assembly that have been and continue to be downsized. While the more highly skill jobs like electrician, carpenter, plumber, HVAC, etc might eventually be automated, that isn't likely to happen anytime soon. In addition to being highly skilled, these jobs also require significant physical dexterity and flexibility. Technology capable of replacing human workers in these fields probably won't emerge in at least 2-3 decades.
Liberal arts majors become teachers? In many states that's not an option with only a BA. I have a psychology BA, and don't meet the standards for any kind of significant teaching job here in WA state. Maybe it's different in some places, but here everyone and their mother has a BA, and there are also quite a few MAs and PhDs as well.
Most liberal arts major go to grad school? Do you have any stats so support this statement? When I graduated in 2000, most students didn't.
Even a graduate degree in a liberal arts field doesn't mean you'll be able to find a full-time college teaching job (community college or otherwise). Full-time college level teaching jobs are extremely competitive, esp since colleges are hiring more adjunct/part-time faculty to avoid paying benefits.
Sure, if you have an MA in high school subject (history, English, etc) you can become a HS teacher, but that sounds like utter hell to me. Don't get me wrong. It's an important job and I have tremendous respect for good HS teachers. But to me a public HS teacher seems like one of the worst jobs imaginable.
It's DEFINITELY not an option here in NY to teach with just a BA. You may be able to teach provisionally (I do) while going to grad school and working on your masters.
I do other things outside of teaching (like writing) so I am not necessarily looking at a full time teaching path. Still I like the types of teaching jobs that I get.
I never said most liberal arts majors go to grad school. Whatever percentage that do or don't, these degrees are not designed to be terminal degrees.
Psychology isn't meant to be a terminal degree either. You'd need at least a MA if not a phd, plus you'd need licensing and possible additional work and credentials.
I think you didn't do well in school, so you hate school and like to attack it.
But the bast majority of jobs with medical benefits and retirement benefits require advanced degrees. As for public school teachers, while I don't teach in public schools I would rather teach there than be an electrician. All things considered teachers get better pay, it's less dangerous by far, and they get plenty of time off (meaning you can do other things and even have a second career).
That's true, but even getting in the door with just a BA can be problematic. Also, according to BLS research, about 60% of all projected job growth for the next decade will require only a high diploma or less and about 70% of all job growth will require less than a bachelors degree.
It seems that most persons who put so much emphasis on a college, especially a BA, are older individuals who are many decades removed from the job market for younger workers. So far the 21st century-globalized economy is creating a some highly skilled jobs that require significant education/training (mostly healthcare and IT), but the most significant majority are lower wage service jobs that only require a HS diploma (or less).
So basically if someone doesn't get a highly practical degree (nursing, engineering, IT, etc.) or some kind of skilled trade (carpentry, electrician, plumbing, auto mechanics, etc.) they'll probably be relegated to a low-wage service job. The days of a BA leading to a high-paying job are long, long, gone. Even graduate degrees in many liberal arts fields might not be that useful.
I can agree with what you are saying too. Bachelors degree is a sure way to success but the economy is somewhat saturated with college grads right now and there isn't enough professional positions for every college graduate. I grew up in a family that is 95% blue collar workers and all of them are doing well and are making great money. My dad is a truck driver and he started off delivering groceries for Kroger, then he moved on to working for this steel company. He saved up and bought his own truck and trailer and he is an owner/operator making 6 figures pulling loads from his former employer. The regular drivers for that company make $25 an hour and gets several hours of overtime. My brother is a police officer for the Alpharetta police department where he got training at their police academy after high school: a very safe Atlanta surburb and he is making 45k a year more than what I am making as an entry level associate chemist. One of my best friends from high school started off stocking selves at target and got forklift training from them and now he works for Costco as a fork lift driver and makes $22 an hour. Blue collar professions like welders, plumbers, mechanics, and electricians can make great money after trade school. Competition for professional jobs that require a degree is fierce. At my company an associate chemist left a couple weeks ago and the R&D manager had 65 resumes come in from recruiters for a 12 month contract to hire position to replace the chemist that left. He said he is going to take the ten best resumes and do phone screens and bring the top 3 in for an interview. One of my classmates from college is still looking for a job as a chemist and we graduated last December. This guy is a lot smarter than myself, he graduated with a 3.76 GPA and did research on analytical analysis and synthesis of PF formaldehyde resins with a publication. He has weak interview skills so I have been coaching him on that as I am telling him how to attacking those touchy feels BS STAR behavioral questions employees ask. Don't get me wrong a college degree will go far but to say high school grads or blue collar workers won't make decent money is not true. There are a lot of college grads that are underemployed working jobs that don't require a college degree that only pay $8-11 an hour in the Atlanta area so I only suggest people who are very ambitious or who have excellent interpersonal skills to attend college. Anyone that doesn't get a full ride to college should look into going to trade school, joining the military, training in the police academy, or get their CDL to become a truck driver if they didn't excel in high school because there is not enough jobs for every college grad right now and it seems blue collar jobs are in higher demand in Atlanta than white collar jobs.
Psychology isn't meant to be a terminal degree either. You'd need at least a MA if not a phd, plus you'd need licensing and possible additional work and credentials.
I think you didn't do well in school, so you hate school and like to attack it.
But the bast majority of jobs with medical benefits and retirement benefits require advanced degrees. As for public school teachers, while I don't teach in public schools I would rather teach there than be an electrician. All things considered teachers get better pay, it's less dangerous by far, and they get plenty of time off (meaning you can do other things and even have a second career).
My cumulative GPA was 3.51, so I did pretty well. Admittedly, psychology is one of the easiest majors with one of the highest GPAs but still...
But the point you make that so many liberal majors requiring a grad degree is exactly my point. Many undergrads in their late-teens/early 20s don't understand this because they've been misled to think any BA=good job. That's not necessarily the case. So for many a BA is just a slippery slope towards accumulating debt for more and more school. That path simply isn't for everyone.
Sorry, but your assertion that the vast majority of jobs with benefits and retirement require an advanced degree is a fallacy. Most of the skilled trades have excellent benefits, and many also have great retirement benefits.
I'm a public-sector employee. I work part-time, the pay is $31/hr, and I have excellent benefits, including a pension. I'm a transit operator, i.e. bus driver. I have more flexibility and better benefits than most people I know who work office jobs (I also like it more than office work). Did my BA help get me this job? NO. Yet the pay and benefits are better than most BAs doing mundane office work.
In retrospect I should have either done an apprenticeship for carpentry, or just skipped college altogether. Even though I did well in terms of GPA, every time I flush a toilet I think about all the time and money I spent getting an impractical degree. I feel like I wasted 4 years of life in college.
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