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Old 10-31-2017, 04:24 PM
 
Location: near bears but at least no snakes
26,655 posts, read 28,691,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwood66 View Post
Merit based hiring and college entrance. No one should have the power to decide who is "needy."
The "power"? Many years ago my youngest sister could barely afford college and she had a genius IQ plus excellent scores. No free money because my parents made too much--although they didn't make enough to send her to a good college. Both of my parents were working. I think it should be some sort of a mixture of merit and need but don't ask me how to make that fair because I don't know.
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Old 10-31-2017, 05:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coloradomom22 View Post
The problem is we've reached a point where many kids will be shut out of college because they are not a minority nor are their parents impoverished. Yet they are not rich enough to pay for school outright. So unless they want to go into massive debt there are few options.

There is this attitude that if you are not poor or a minority then you are privileged. But many many kids fall in the middle including mine. I along with other parents I know are stunned when looking at the real cost of college now. Forget private schools, even state schools costs are outrageous. And the old "go to community college first" doesn't always work as many schools will not transfer those credits. They want the money themselves.
Why do you think minorities have it easier? My wife and I are minorities and neither of us got any race based aid. None of our minority friends did either. As a matter of fact, middle-class minorities have it harder than anyone, because we have less generational wealth.
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Old 10-31-2017, 07:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
Why do you think minorities have it easier? My wife and I are minorities and neither of us got any race based aid. None of our minority friends did either. As a matter of fact, middle-class minorities have it harder than anyone, because we have less generational wealth.
The problem with this statement is middle class "wealth" is color blind. If someone had generational wealth as you call it, they are unlikely to be middle class.


The problem is in our system, those who are truly wealthy can afford it. Those who are not "middle class" ( and I put that in quotes because it's on the pretty low economic end of middle class) can get need based aid. But those who are just barely above and into middle class have neither the personal wealth that everyone seems to assume they have, to pay the cost, nor are poor enough for need based aid.


That's the financial trap for the middle class today, and it doesn't care what color you are.


Simply put. College, at least public college, should be merit based. If you are above some standard for high school grades and ACT/SAT, then you go free, regardless of needs. Otherwise you pay. That standard however should not be set unobtainably high, but at the level to produce the number of college graduates our country needs. Such a system would encourage the top students into college and encourage others toward alternatives.
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Old 10-31-2017, 09:10 PM
 
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Merit is one thing, need-based financial aid is another.

A kid can get both if he/she qualifies for both.
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The problem with this statement is middle class "wealth" is color blind. If someone had generational wealth as you call it, they are unlikely to be middle class.


The problem is in our system, those who are truly wealthy can afford it. Those who are not "middle class" ( and I put that in quotes because it's on the pretty low economic end of middle class) can get need based aid. But those who are just barely above and into middle class have neither the personal wealth that everyone seems to assume they have, to pay the cost, nor are poor enough for need based aid.


That's the financial trap for the middle class today, and it doesn't care what color you are.


Simply put. College, at least public college, should be merit based. If you are above some standard for high school grades and ACT/SAT, then you go free, regardless of needs. Otherwise you pay. That standard however should not be set unobtainably high, but at the level to produce the number of college graduates our country needs. Such a system would encourage the top students into college and encourage others toward alternatives.
If K-12 schools are unequal, how can college admissions ever be a true meritocracy?
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Old 11-01-2017, 07:43 PM
 
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Why would you assume they are unequal and if so, why would you assume that's race based? Take my dad for example. He was the son of a sharecropper. Grew up staring at the butt end of a mule. Never finished high school. My mother was a coal miner's daughter. Yep, it's not just a song, they really exist. I grew up in a cotton mill town with the rest of the lint heads. No one was wealthy. Black or white, we went to the same small town school. Some of us went to college. Some went to work in the mill. Some went into the military. We were all the same SES and all had the same opportunity. And the racial mix was pretty much the same.


Today, I live in a small city with a broader SES. And a broader range of education, from a lot of PhDs all the way to didn't graduate high school. The racial mix is different now. Not just black and white, but includes Hispanic, Asian, Indian (as in the country India) and a few others. And all the kids go to the same high school. Have the same teachers. Have the same choice of classes. Play on the same sports teams. Some go to college. Some go to CC. Some go to tech school. Some go into the military. Some are Major Leaguers. All get the same opportunity based on how they perform and what choices they make without regard to race. Just ability.
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:15 PM
 
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What a lot of people don't understand is that even need-based aid has a merit component of sorts and "merit scholarships" often don't have as much to do with "merit" as people assume.

Here's why: colleges are free to offer as much, or as little, need based aid as they choose. They also have limited institutional budgets.

Certain students are more "attractive" to colleges for various reasons. They may be trying to drive up SAT scores, or they may need a few more students that can pay more, or they may need more kids from California.

The financial aid and admissions officers sit down and say, hmmm, we really WANT Kid A more than Kid B. So, let's give Kid A a better financial aid package. If Kid B wants to pay more out of pocket, or is willing to take out more loans, he can come, but let's not break the bank over him because we dont want him as much as Kid A.

So, even in need-based aid there is often a measure of "merit." But, keep in mind that the "merit" is decided by the college.

Therein lies one of the fallacies with "merit aid." All merit scholarships are awarded based on the COLLEGE'S PRIORITIES for recruiting students, not any unbiased definition of "merit."

For instance, as a counselor, I worked with a young man who had a 2.5 ish GPA. He applied to a college in the midwest, was accepted, and was offered a "diversity" merit scholarship. He was white. But, when I inquired with the college, I was told that the "Diversity" he would bring was that this particular college had a hard time attracting male students and also students from the East Coast. So, technically, his "merit scholarship" wasn't based on grades or test scores, but his gender and home state.

Also, a lot of colleges throw merit scholarships at kids who can pay full freight. The reasoning on the part of colleges is that it's better to get at least some of that full pay money, so let's attract that kid from the wealthier family with a little discount. The kid doesn't necessarily have to be an academic superstar or have some particular talent. His "merit" is the rest of the cash his family will fork over after being told that that their child has been awarded a "merit scholarship" and thinking that the college thinks their kid is "special."

So, don't be fooled into thinking that "merit" always means "the kids who have worked harder." It doesn't. Not by a long shot.

And, again, even need based aid can be distributed unequally based on the college's priorities, so there is a similar element of "merit" in need based aid as well.
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Old 11-01-2017, 08:22 PM
 
8,391 posts, read 7,648,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
If K-12 schools are unequal, how can college admissions ever be a true meritocracy?
College admissions is not a true meritocracy and never has been.

It's about colleges filling seats and balancing their budgets.
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:39 PM
 
Location: The Midwest
2,966 posts, read 3,917,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
If K-12 schools are unequal, how can college admissions ever be a true meritocracy?
They can’t be. Meritocracy is pretty much a myth.
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