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Yea, some of those schools we looked at were R1's and they have some Assistant Professorship openings. The community colleges/schools that expect more teaching having far less pay, while these R1's/Research universities pay much more. Is that correct? This was also a concern of mine. I was concerned about my compensation if I go for a job that's purely about teaching. I don't want to be compensated less just because I went for a teaching-focused job that's not all about research.
Generally correct. Private R1s tend to pay better than public R1s, universities pay more than community colleges. Research pays more than teaching.
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@ the 1st bolded point, I like my dissertation -- I really do, but only the non-writing parts (lol). I enjoyed exploring something I'm really interested in, collecting data, getting to interview people, analyzing the data and finding the answers within, presenting my work at conferences. I do NOT like having to go back to it over and over and over again to revise that paper. It is frustrating and I'm not certain if I can make a career out of it.
Well, let me be terribly, horribly cynical here. You don't have to make a career of it. You have to get tenure. After that, you have somewhat more leeway to structure your career. Sure, there are departmental politics, there is the carrot of promotion to full professor from associate professor, but you would not be the first person whose research accomplishments dwindled as they moved on in years.
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I think to be a research-focused assistant professor you have to love writing. I don't think I am bad at writing, but I'd be lying if I said I would enjoy revising papers all day. So to your point, I would enjoy diving deeper into the results of my dissertation and have even gathered some data that allows me to go further, but the writing gets me. But no job is perfect, right? There's always something people dislike about their job, and that's what's been on my mind lately. I have to also remember that right now, I'm not getting paid $80K+ to do that as a grad student. People sing a totally different tune once that check comes -- that could be me.
Doing what you love vs doing what pays. A classic conundrum. You may be temperamentally suited to be an R2 or R3 person. Which is not a bad career path. In the grand scheme of things, faculty are paid well, with great benefits. You could get into the nuanced arguments of academic pay vs private industry, but you seem as if you want the academic life, rendering that moot. Working at a state university is not a path to extreme wealth, but it is a path to a comfortable, secure life.
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@ the second bolded, I'm a city person. I grew up in NYC.
I remember a friend of mine experiencing culture shock when she moved from NYC to Chicago. She was sad because she had to live in such a small town....
Field is mathematics education. But my research interests/expertise are in technology/game-based learning in math education.
I teach heavily with technology for example and study how educational games can be used to help kids learn math. I taught math content courses for undergraduate preservice teachers while I was in school.
You probably already know this, but Montessori is heavily into teaching math via games. They start kids out learning the underpinnings of algebra in kindergarten already. And the theory and methods were developed toward the end of the 1800's, which is mind-blowing!
If you could contribute to improving math education in the US, you'd be a national hero, lol.
@ the first bolded, what do you mean? Are you saying that people start doing a ton of research and then come to burn out and resent their jobs?
@ the second bolded, he has written a recommendation letter to one school so far and doesn't strike me as the type of person who would steer me away from a job because he really wants to promote someone else. You raise a good point though when you mention "personal phone call to a colleague". This suggests that getting these academic jobs wouldn't be about my accomplishments, but rather who I know. It also suggests that faculty members here could easily contact people they know that are on these search committees, and if they don't/aren't doing that for you, then they really don't have your best interest at heart. Do I have that right?
Why did you say the university assistant professorships are like temporary post docs?
First, you won't be doing "a ton" of research. I am saying you don't have to do research to be happy.
Second, of course you have to be well qualified. But there are many other applicants just as well qualified. I have been on hiring committees and every applicant that made it onto the shortlist has a committee member backing that applicant. The members go through the files and pick out the students of people they know. It's considered a "favor" done for the student's advisor, which will be repaid in kind. A phone call helps to make sure your application doesn't get lost in the pile.
Third, at the top universities you will not be tenure track straight out of graduation. I assume you have looked at job listings. The listings tell you how many years the position is for.
Generally correct. Private R1s tend to pay better than public R1s, universities pay more than community colleges. Research pays more than teaching.
Yea, generally speaking this seems to be the case. Thanks for the info. I think Ruth's advice about looking at each college individually here is key since it can vary and is not always true.
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Originally Posted by fishbrains
Well, let me be terribly, horribly cynical here. You don't have to make a career of it. You have to get tenure. After that, you have somewhat more leeway to structure your career. Sure, there are departmental politics, there is the carrot of promotion to full professor from associate professor, but you would not be the first person whose research accomplishments dwindled as they moved on in years.
My guess here is that it's harder to obtain tenure at R1 schools?
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Originally Posted by fishbrains
Doing what you love vs doing what pays. A classic conundrum. You may be temperamentally suited to be an R2 or R3 person. Which is not a bad career path. In the grand scheme of things, faculty are paid well, with great benefits. You could get into the nuanced arguments of academic pay vs private industry, but you seem as if you want the academic life, rendering that moot. Working at a state university is not a path to extreme wealth, but it is a path to a comfortable, secure life.
Indeed, and I think I already experienced what it's like to do something solely for money and it's not fun or enjoyable. I need a balance. If R2's or R3's pay well but still offer something that I enjoy then I'm all for it. By the way, I think my added interest/expertise in technology and games in math education allows me the opportunity to look for non-academic jobs, which I'm totally okay with. My advisor and other faculty members don't seem to know much about these positions though (which makes sense -- it's not their forte), so I'm kind of on my own there. I'm not opposed to working in industry.
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Originally Posted by fishbrains
I remember a friend of mine experiencing culture shock when she moved from NYC to Chicago. She was sad because she had to live in such a small town....
You probably already know this, but Montessori is heavily into teaching math via games. They start kids out learning the underpinnings of algebra in kindergarten already. And the theory and methods were developed toward the end of the 1800's, which is mind-blowing!
If you could contribute to improving math education in the US, you'd be a national hero, lol.
Let us know where you get that first job!
That's my goal! Thanks for your advice and help! I will keep you posted
The issue of pay is potentially a major one. Some flagship state schools pay significantly more than other flagship state universities. But once you've published and gotten tenure, you can move around for better pay, when openings arise.
Given that most faculty would have to start over the tenure process at the new school, moving after being tenured isn’t that common. It does happen, but tenure for most is a pair of golden handcuffs that they have no intention of shedding.
The good news is getting that new job after being tenured at the current job is much easier.
Look for colleges and universities that are not rated as R1 level schools. There are many of them that are out there.
You can also get an idea of what the expectation is for research by looking at the wording of the job advertisement;; for example, if the ad reads, "the successful candidate will be responsible for completing teaching, service, and scholarship activities," then the listing of these tells you the order of importance. You can also simply ask during the Zoom/in-person interview -- what is the program/department/university's expectation for publishing?
From experience, I have found my own position in academia (I am not at an R1 school) to be a total pressure cooker. The work is constant and never-ending; it is not uncommon for us as a program to work 7 days per week, 60+ hours per week. Yes, we are fully staffed. Yes, we are good managers of time. The positive side is that I have the option to telecommute and I get about 7 weeks off in December and about 14 weeks during summer, plus fall/spring breaks. Keep in mind that many of us still work during breaks, but the work may not be as intensive.
In general, I am reasonably happy in my place of employment. Of course, I also have fewer working years ahead of me than I once did. My advice to you is to look for a place that values teaching if you don't want the pressure of "publish or perish." Keep in mind that when all is said and done, it is just a job. Look for a group of people with whom you think you will mesh very well. Many departments function as a team and education is no exception. Believe me when I tell, significant psychiatric illness and pettiness is very, very rampant in academia. Learn to gird your loins and avoid those people at all costs.
It sounds to me your advisor is steering you away from research university jobs because he can't get you in. Or he can, but he wants to promote another one of his students. By "get you in", I mean the recommendation letter but also a personal phone call to a colleague.
If this is really your decision then I suggest you get the best job out of your advisor at this time..
I hope very much that this is not how things work in academia.
We know very little about the OP's situation so my remarks do not apply to their case. However, it is quite possible that a PhD advisor does not feel that a student is good enough for a lucrative position at a research school and might be better suited for a job at a teaching oriented college. In general, it is quite possible that that a majority of PhD students at R1 schools are not good enough to become tenured professors at R1 schools, no? It could be a pyramid type of a thing: a majority of undergrad students are not good enough to go to a PhD program at a similar college, a majority of PhDs are not strong enough to get a postdoc job in academia, a majority of postdocs are not necessarily good enough to get a tenure track position at a similar level university.
A gentle way to break this horrible news to a student is to orient that student toward an attainable goal.
There are not that many tenure/tenure track positions in R1 schools. It is good to be realistic sometimes. A relevant statistic might be the ratio of the average number of PhDs produced by a department annually and the average number of new tenure track/ tenure positions. It could easily be say 5:1. Go figure....
Last edited by norcalsocal; 09-26-2021 at 01:01 PM..
Forgetting salary scales between research and teaching (keeping in mind that some of the money difference is connected to how much research money you bring in) what would you be most comfortable with?
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