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Just over the weekend I read an article that said, lower-income students tend to either be too embarrassed (or intimidated) to ask the prof for help during office hours, or they don't know it's an option that's available. I was in a program once, where the students rarely asked questions in class. I was the only one who asked questions, and the other students would always thank me for asking the questions they were puzzling over, themselves. They seemed to think, that to ask a question on the material in our readings, which was also usually covered in class lectures as well, was admitting that they didn't know the material. They thought it would make them look bad. So that type of thinking is probably what causes some students to not make use of office hours. They think it's "bad" to need help, a mark against them.
I remember, that the only class I ever needed help in, in college was a class where the professor wouldn't have been of any help. He was the type who was so off on his own cloud, that he wouldn't have been able to understand why anyone was having trouble with the material, or how to help students figure out a topic for the required paper. He wouldn't have been able to come down from his cloud to the mundane level of kids struggling with a required course that was over their heads. I was able to eventually find the help I needed from a friend.
Did it say why this especially affects lower-income students?
That's an interesting point. Where would they "learn" that asking questions is bad? It seems so many kids in elementary school are egger to ask questions about everything. By high school they try to hide in the back of the class. What makes them afraid to speak up in class?
It was mostly around middle school where teachers and parents started discouraging students from asking questions. Then again, for me, it started in kindergarten where, every single morning, my mother would say "You will keep your mouth shut at all times, and not ask and questions, and obey everything that [name of teacher] says". Every single day. I would point out to my mother that I was not obeying what she said and that it was obviously not working, so she needed to try a different technique. But she said that she will keep saying that to me until I start obeying it. I never did.
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I can see that as a form of the "professor wouldn't have been any help.
Agreed.
Last edited by mitsguy2001; 01-03-2023 at 09:27 AM..
I don’t understand how they would not know that office hours are an option that is available. It’s usually listed on the syllabus and the instructor usually mentions it as well.
I went to office hours from time to time when there was something I felt I didn’t understand well although some of my professors might been intelligent people, but were poor teachers. So in those cases I usually looked elsewhere for help or clarification.
This. It happens. But there's also an issue of students who are so hopelessly in over their heads with a topic area, that they don't know which way is up. I think it might take someone with a special gift for making a subject accessible or meaningful to students who are lost on that level.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 01-03-2023 at 08:40 AM..
Did it say why this especially affects lower-income students?
It didn't. After reading your question, I did a search to try to pull up the same article, but couldn't find it. I did find other articles on the office-hours topic,though, one of which included this comment by a prof:
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I see office hours as an important method to get to know my students, and that helps me teach better.
That's interesting. I didn't know office hours were in part just for saying "hello", as one article said, and for providing an opportunity for the professor to get to know the students. This can benefit the students in the end, it was pointed out, if they need a faculty recommendation for a job search after graduation, or potential job contacts. It can be a way of getting more leverage out of the college experience. Who knew?
Perhaps high schools need to do a better job of guiding students toward appropriate majors.
Most of those I knew who were weeded out of engineering majors either dropped out, flunked out, or switched their major to Human Development and Family Studies..
I would say that when you are in high school, you need to determine your life goals and career goals. Instead of choosing a major that would academically interest you for 4 years, decide where you want to live and what lifestyle you want. Choose a career that is plentiful where you want to live, that you can at least tolerate, and that would allow you your desired lifestyle, and then choose a major that leads do that career. And decide if you want to work to live or live to work, and whether or not your intended situation will be dependent on a higher ranked college, or if you'd be better off to avoid debt. The problem is, no 17 year old knows enough about himself/herself nor about the world to make these decisions.
First, high schools need to do a much better job of guiding students towards appropriate majors. No doubt about it! It's a real flaw in the US educational system - for high schools and colleges.
My son was very disappointed after college graduation to discover he needed a masters degree to enter his profession. Not one professor or administrator at his college suggested it. He spent a year working at while applying to graduate schools. It wasn't the worse mistake, but it was a frustrating year.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Does this mean that you'd be travelling between the high school and college. Seems like a burden, and it seems that it precludes having a normal high school life and participating in extra-curriculars, and having a job outside of school. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. My high school definitely did not offer anything like that. And, even if they did, the consensus was, rightly or wrongly, that colleges would be more willing to accept the AP class since the colleges were more familiar with it.
My daughter has always said she wished she left high school at age 16 to enroll full-time in a community college. I wish I had thought of community college as an option. My daughter needed more high level English classes and less teenage nonsense.
I have to say, I participated in many extra-curricular in high school - marching band, plays, clubs, etc. If I had an option of going back to 1970 something - I would skip it all for community college.
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
That's interesting. I didn't know office hours were in part just for saying "hello", as one article said, and for providing an opportunity for the professor to get to know the students. This can benefit the students in the end, it was pointed out, if they need a faculty recommendation for a job search after graduation, or potential job contacts. It can be a way of getting more leverage out of the college experience. Who knew?
I always stopped by to say hello. It's how I got babysitting jobs from the professors!
First, high schools need to do a much better job of guiding students towards appropriate majors. No doubt about it! It's a real flaw in the US educational system - for high schools and colleges.
My son was very disappointed after college graduation to discover he needed a masters degree to enter his profession. Not one professor or administrator at his college suggested it. He spent a year working at while applying to graduate schools. It wasn't the worse mistake, but it was a frustrating year.
I found professors to be clueless about employment prospects for the fields they were in. They were completely disengaged from that question. Later, when I worked at a university, I learned that there are a rare few professors who are well-connected in business or industry, who pull out all stops to arrange interview opportunities for their more promising students.
But generally, career advice is part of the academic advisers' job in each department; there's usually an undergrad and a graduate adviser, or a graduate faculty adviser. The undergrad adviser is the person who arranges job seminars for employers who call the department to request that a job seminar be arranged for students to learn about available opportunities in their field, what the qualifications are, and so forth. So the adviser is the person to approach with questions about employment possibilities in any career path related to the major.
This raises a similar point to the thread's title question; undergrad advisers don't understand why students don't come in to get to know them. Like professors' office hours, the advisers' office hours aren't just for guidance in program requirements, course requirements for graduation, and that kind of thing. (This info is available in college publications, so many students don't see the need to visit an advisor.). But the advisors can be aware of special scholarship options, may be in a position to recommend the high-achieving students for local organizations offering awards or scholarships, have information on employment opportunities in the field, and may even have informative handouts from employers. They're potentially a valuable resource. And so is the college job placement center. These resources are overlooked by some students.
I found professors to be clueless about employment prospects for the fields they were in. They were completely disengaged from that question. Later, when I worked at a university, I learned that there are a rare few professors who are well-connected in business or industry, who pull out all stops to arrange interview opportunities for their more promising students.
But generally, career advice is part of the academic advisers' job in each department; there's usually an undergrad and a graduate adviser, or a graduate faculty adviser. The undergrad adviser is the person who arranges job seminars for employers who call the department to request that a job seminar be arranged for students to learn about available opportunities in their field, what the qualifications are, and so forth. So the adviser is the person to approach with questions about employment possibilities in any career path related to the major.
This raises a similar point to the thread's title question; undergrad advisers don't understand why students don't come in to get to know them. Like professors' office hours, the advisers' office hours aren't just for guidance in program requirements, course requirements for graduation, and that kind of thing. (This info is available in college publications, so many students don't see the need to visit an advisor.). But the advisors can be aware of special scholarship options, may be in a position to recommend the high-achieving students for local organizations offering awards or scholarships, have information on employment opportunities in the field, and may even have informative handouts from employers. They're potentially a valuable resource. And so is the college job placement center. These resources are overlooked by some students.
I don't know for I found, with the opposite side of the coin, that having those from industry being professors was usually a disaster. First off all, there is the issue of whether they can teach or not. Secondly, when one has an adjunct prof coming out of a city an hour away once a week, getting in touch with them on other than the class day (or even the class time) can be like pulling teeth.
For if in anything else, look at it this way: for the prof from industry, how dedicated is he going to be to the student, seeing how he could be teaching his replacement?
EDIT: Then, there is the other side of the coin. Once I applied to the graduate program in marine archaeology and there was that question of what did I see myself doing in 10 years. I answered "working for INTERPOL or UNODC" and they wrote back telling there was no one in their department with my interests and that was the end of my application.
In another school, for another graduate degree, I did my capstone project on antiquity theft and received high marks, one of my profs saying this was the kind of work to do proposals for the Ford Foundation. But, there we go in that what in the academic world serves the academic world.......and what of the practical world is that much of a concern for the academic world?
Last edited by TamaraSavannah; 01-03-2023 at 10:45 AM..
This raises a similar point to the thread's title question; undergrad advisers don't understand why students don't come in to get to know them. Like professors' office hours, the advisers' office hours aren't just for guidance in program requirements, course requirements for graduation, and that kind of thing. (This info is available in college publications, so many students don't see the need to visit an advisor.). But the advisors can be aware of special scholarship options, may be in a position to recommend the high-achieving students for local organizations offering awards or scholarships, have information on employment opportunities in the field, and may even have informative handouts from employers. They're potentially a valuable resource. And so is the college job placement center. These resources are overlooked by some students.
Usually, your academic advisor was the chairperson of your major. Your academic advisor had to sign off on your course selection for each semester. How do people not get to know their advisor (the chairperson of their major)?
My professors approved papers/essay subjects. It was required before a student could began writing. So again, how do people not get to know their professors.
My (and my kids) college job placement centers were a waste of time. They tend to focus on easy fixes where alumni already have connections.
I insisted my son use his college placement center to redo his resume. The head of center said my son would not be hired - where my son is currently working. So much for that.
Usually, your academic advisor was the chairperson of your major. Your academic advisor had to sign off on your course selection for each semester. How do people not get to know their advisor (the chairperson of their major)?
My professors approved papers/essay subjects. It was required before a student could began writing. So again, how do people not get to know their professors.
My (and my kids) college job placement centers were a waste of time. They tend to focus on easy fixes where alumni already have connections.
I insisted my son use his college placement center to redo his resume. The head of center said my son would not be hired - where my son is currently working. So much for that.
There's usually a staff academic advisor as well as a faculty advisor. It's the office admin/advisor's job to arrange the job seminars, etc.
Not all professors require approval of research paper topics, and many profs don't even require a research paper. I suppose that would depend to some extent on the major. Not all universities or departments require anyone to approve all students' course selections each semester. I've never heard of that. That would be very time-consuming in departments with a large number of majors.
I don't think we can generalize across the board about how job placement centers work, or how individual job placement counselors work. I might agree with you, that most tend not to think outside the box. That doesn't mean they're useless, though. It sounds like a YMMV kind of a thing. Good for your son for not being influenced by the negative message, and getting the job!
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