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From this link, I found the following for UCLA criteria. Ms. Sun's Admissions Guide to Highly Selective California Public Universities
Academic
Rigor of secondary school record - very important
Class rank - not considered
Academic GPA - very important
Standardized test scores - very important
Application essay - very important
Recommendation(s) - not considered
Nonacademic
Interview - not considered
Extracurricular activities - important
Talent/ability - important
Character/personal qualities - important
First generation - considered
Alumni/ae relation - not considered
Geographical residence - considered State residency - not considered (the Undergraduate Admissions & Relations with Schools states that "UCLA gives priority to applicants who are California residents" but if you look at the UCLA freshman admit rate for out-of-state applicants, you can see the percentage is about the same or higher compared to in-state applicants)
Religious affiliation/commitment - not considered
Racial/ethnic status - not considered
Volunteer work - important
Work experience - important
Level of interest - not considered
The stats that are available show a ~1-5% greater rate of Asians than Whites in last year's admission rate in some of the schools. That's not as big as you make it out to be.
My son got into UCLA, UCSD, UC Davis, UCSB, and UCI. He is waiting for Berkeley next week. He really wants to go to UCLA and yes, he is WHITE. Eight white students, seven Asians, and one Hispanic student were accepted to UCLA from his high school.
If you want a comparison for another white student, here are my son's stats:
Eligible in the Local Context (Top 4% of his high school)- Guarantees admission to UC Davis, UCSB, and UCI
Class Rank: 6/750
10-12 weighted GPA: 4.69
SAT: 2180
SAT II: Biology (720), Math II (700), English Lit (690)
ACT: 32
Classes:
Full International Baccalaureate Diploma Candidate
Academy of Technology, Math, and Science Student
Five AP Classes in addition to IB Diploma: AP Stats, AP Enliglish Lang, AP Bio, AP Physics, AP Euro History
Three classes taken at community college
Extra Curriculars:
Lead volunteer of telemetry department at local hospital with 300 service hours, varsity track and field, JV cross country, publicity for National Honor Society, piano, California Scholarship Federation member, Operation Smile Vice President, represents high school to church council, Cougars for Character member, and independent research project on dissolved oxygen concentration with chlorella and diatoms.
Essays: One was about why he loved biology, wanted to major in it, and his research project. His second essay was about the community in his high school.
You can compare to other students here and maybe submit an appeal if you feel you need to: *****official ucla decision thread class 2013***** - College Discussion
Students do find more success with winning appeals at the mid-tier campuses like UCD and UCSB. I am sorry this happend, your daughter sounds bright and gifted. She will hopefully find a school where she can be happy. I just wanted to share so you could compare and maybe see if there were any differences in application types between your daughter and my son, although I realize this is just one case. Maybe if you check out that other site you will have even more to compare and put together the puzzle of who was accepted, although it seems pretty random if you ask me.
Race is a factor in for instance making sure that Berkeley is not 97% asian rather than 70%. >> This is very naive. Admissions is not done by computer, but by human beings who are vulnerable to political pressures, implicit and explicit. Consider it a sliding scale, as the share --> 100%, the admit rates for a given set of quant indicators will go down. The conditionality is non-trivial. Asians know this. Their effective admission rates for solid students have been dramatically reduced over the years.
Berkeley I'm sure gets enough applications from asian kids to fill their entering class twice over with 4.6/2300+ SAT score asian applicants. >> My point...
I'm specifically referring to the intangible factors, those that make an applicant far more capable with lower scores. >> Presumably you mean quantifiable factors, for a number of non-quant factors are in fact very tangible.
In fact, my daughter's GPA and SAT score exceeds that of some of her asian friends who were admitted to UC-Davis and UCLA. Go figure. >> Well, this is not inconsistent with my post, but let's look at the nonquants.
Case in point is Hector, a mexican-american applicant with a 3.7 GPA and a 2100 SAT. Hector has taken two AP classes, but not able to do more because he lives in a single parent household with seven kids. His father is deceased and Hector had to work to help feed his family while attending school. This also prevented him from engaging in those kinds of extra activities that schools favor. Hector lives in the ghetto and hears gunfire every night. Gang warfare is commonplace. I'm saying the Hector is a far more valuable student, far more worthy than say Vic Chan, who lives in Cupertino and studies 18 hours per day in the comfort and solitude of his bedroom. Chan never had to work and was able to study for the SAT years in advance without distraction. Chan applies with a 4.6 GPA and a 2400 SAT with loads of AP classes and tons of activities with other asian-based groups.
>> Let's take this version of the hypothetical under the assumption that there are no other relevant facts. Your assertion: "Hector is a far more valuable student, far more worthy..." My response is three fold. One, I would never presume one student being more valued than another. Two, it is high likely that Hector's file will stand out versus other applicants from his ethnicity, particularly for a public university in a state with a high % of Hispanics. Three, it is therefore a reasonable to suggest that Hector will be seen as the more attractive admit. Value judgments have no place here.
I'm saying that UCLA will admit Chan as a matter of course. >> "As a matter of course." What does this mean? These is no Asian conspiracy. There is however, a different set of objectives and circumstances for UCLA. That Mr. Chan should have a good shot to get into UCLA, a uni one significant notch below UCB on the admit ladder, should not be surprising. That said, it will not be a slam dunk for any Asian student. However, perfect SAT's suggest Vic ain't your average Asian applicant, since less than 0.1% get the perfect 2400. And again, I am assuming nothing else about his application
Hector may not be given as much consideration given whatever factors are pressing at the moment, like the tight budget. >> Hmmm...the tie between admissions selectivity and finances is likely to be small given needs-blind admissions. Although, I would agree that such firewalls are likely to be more porous during such rough economic times.
I'm also saying that Hector deserves greater consideration. >> LOL!! You continue to argue on moral grounds. While it is the right of every red blood American to thins their children deserve the best, but as an analytics-based consultant, I keep my values out for the sake of my clients.
I applaud Chan for his efforts and hard work, but the road was much easier for him. >> Pardon my French, but do you realise how ridiculous and ignorant you sound. I do not know if Vic is beaten physically and mentally by his parents to achieve perfection, just like I do not know if Hector is given great love and support and special tutleage from Ivy alumni...I do not make any such assumptions. If you truly wish to understand admissions critically, keep your value judgments on the shelf!
Chan would be turned down at UCLA if it had already admitted 70% asians and couldn't go higher. >> ?????
I think there is more to a student than GPA and SAT scores. >> Welcome to the modern world. This has been the case for the past 25+ years, with each year getting more competitive.
I don't believe in favoring students who obsess over grades and spend their entire waking moments testing the limits of human endurance for studying, especially when they have no outside distractions, no adversity beyond what they put on themselves, and no obstacles. >> This is your admissions philosophy. You may be surprised to know that my own personal sentiments are not terribly dissimilar. The problem for you and for thousands of parents is that you imposed your value judgments onto the admissions process. My business is based on strategy and logic, not wishful thinking nor naïve expectations of an absolutism in values with regards to “should” and “ought to’s.” Until you have your own university, I would suggest you ponder a bit what I am trying to teach you…
I think white students have the greatest advantage, being that society has favored them overwhelmingly on every level for centuries. This still occurs. Asians have a great advantage because all they merely need to do is commit themselves to excessively studying to get extraodinary marks. They then are given great consideration. I don't find that model an ideal one to follow in developing well-rounded, versatile people. Great for robots, people who want to work as engineers spending their entire careers relating to computers. Great for people who want to spend 16 hours per day working with chemicals in a lab. great for those who want to spend 16 hours per day in a lab dissecting animals and studying fossils or tissue samples or enzyme activity under a microscope. Great for people who want to work for the rest of their lives in complete solitude, not relating or communicating with people who are different than themselves. No I don't favor this model. >> Were your thread on what should be the admissions philosophy for the University of California system, I would be willing to dig into this paragraph statement by statement. But nearly all is immaterial to the strategic decision that applicants should have made and what the university based its decision on…
I shudder to think that you are an admissions consultant >> The great tragedy here is that as a parent you failed to even acknowledge the role that strategic games play in the admit process regarding your child. Nowhere in my previous post did I ever reveal my own personal views, values, or casus belli. While I have enjoyed a fruitful career in divulging my opinions on matters, I am paid for my analysis and strategic policy advice. If you can step back from your personal tragedy, you will note that I am giving you thousands of dollars of advice for free. Open your eyes and see!
and unable to accept the reality that racism or traditional disadvantages still works to the detriment of certain races of people. >> What an odd and utterly irrelevant accusation.
Certainly parents of kids applying for admission were affected. Their grandparents undoubtedly were. >> You would be surprised to know that you match the archetype upon which I formed my consultancy. ..a parent who did all the “right things” but did them with their blinders on. The parent and child combo who would awaken in April with the nasty realization that they did no realize the nature of the game they had been playing for the past 4+ years.
No wonder these schools are producing robots who are social, self-absorbed retards. >> You are bitter. You feel cheated. You feel played. You are projecting this venom on those whom you once admired but now you are making responsible for your child’s denial. If I am right, I am sure that those who were admitted and the ethnicities at whom you are targeting this bitterness might forgive you for such statements. In my experience, a fair number those kids working their butts off are also those willing to engage in the learning and application process.
Look around. This is not good. >> I see a different world than you do…in comp sci, biochemistry, physics, electrical engineering, material science engineering, law and economics, these are all fields that require focused study and reflection…
But, I support affirmative action. >> Relevance to this discussion????
It is an ever-evolving mechanism to compensate for a playing field that is still not level. >> True as far as conception, but plagued with a number of problems…but again, relevance?
It appears like the rest of the country (esp the East) is far ahead in this regard.
>> Among big private unis, a combo of the Stanford & Harvard models predominates. Among top public universities, UCB is leading the way.
>> The West defines the frontier in admissions, where the West remains anchored in tradition
S
P.S. If your daughter earned a high GPA and high SAT and has spent time developing her whole person, she should be get into a number of fine universities. That is great, even if the strategizing was not done. Don't lose sight of that and retool strategically...
Last edited by Sandpointian; 03-21-2009 at 02:16 AM..
you can tell alexus is prejudiced toward asians. he is not an impartial judge and he assumes a lot. he is also an idiot for thinking asians study for 15 to 18 hours and there is not enough time in the day for any other extracurricular activities. that is not even effective studying and your brain shuts down anyway. he also assumes those who have harder times in life deserve more, that's like saying a homeless person deserves more. it also ignores the work and dedication parents put in toward their children and that should not be discredited but should be rewarded. just because a child is from unfortunate backgrounds does not mean they are more qualified, more moral or have worked harder. And even if they have, it's rarely quantifiable. There are standards and they have to be met period. If he thinks asians are having it easier and arguing a mexican immigrant who has a poorer background is more qualified needs to realize that the parents then need to be faulted. your children, generally, are only as successful as you can provide for them. To fault another group for several generations humble beginnings, diligence, hard work, and achieved success is wrong. then that mexican immigrant who has potential should not be bitter and realize they did not make the standards, end of story, and apply at other fine schools where the opportunity to achieve is still there. A student like that would be accepted at many good schools and it is not like they are being discriminated against.
he is placing an unfair moral judgement on others that is in essence immoral. it's no different than those who are bitter trying to pull down someone they think is successful.
I think this is a very interesting discussion and one that is probably very talked about in California. I'd like to thank everyone for their points of view and educating me a bit more on the College admissions experience in California. I would just like to remind everyone about the TOS:
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I don't find that model an ideal one to follow in developing well-rounded, versatile people. Great for robots, people who want to work as engineers spending their entire careers relating to computers. Great for people who want to spend 16 hours per day working with chemicals in a lab. great for those who want to spend 16 hours per day in a lab dissecting animals and studying fossils or tissue samples or enzyme activity under a microscope. Great for people who want to work for the rest of their lives in complete solitude, not relating or communicating with people who are different than themselves. No I don't favor this model.
Well, would you want a doctor that spent lots of time studying and learning, or one that is better at talking to people. Kind of like that show House, he doesn't talk to people well, but is very serious about learning and being right and finding the answer. If you have a doctor or surgeon, you'd probably want one that can find the right answer. If you have an engineer building a bridge or other device where safety is a concern, then you'd want one that studied and learned what they were supposed to. The UC schools have highly ranked technical programs, so it wouldn't be a surprise such people would want to go there.
If you are looking for a more well rounded, more social education, then that's where liberal arts schools are involved. UC schools may have liberal arts programs, but they are better ranked in technical fields. In fact most of the ivy league schools don't have serious engineering programs.
Race is a factor in for instance making sure that Berkeley is not 97% asian rather than 70%. >> This is very naive. Admissions is not done by computer, but by human beings who are vulnerable to political pressures, implicit and explicit. Consider it a sliding scale, as the share --> 100%, the admit rates for a given set of quant indicators will go down. The conditionality is non-trivial. Asians know this. Their effective admission rates for solid students have been dramatically reduced over the years.
Berkeley I'm sure gets enough applications from asian kids to fill their entering class twice over with 4.6/2300+ SAT score asian applicants. >> My point...
I'm specifically referring to the intangible factors, those that make an applicant far more capable with lower scores. >> Presumably you mean quantifiable factors, for a number of non-quant factors are in fact very tangible.
In fact, my daughter's GPA and SAT score exceeds that of some of her asian friends who were admitted to UC-Davis and UCLA. Go figure. >> Well, this is not inconsistent with my post, but let's look at the nonquants.
Case in point is Hector, a mexican-american applicant with a 3.7 GPA and a 2100 SAT. Hector has taken two AP classes, but not able to do more because he lives in a single parent household with seven kids. His father is deceased and Hector had to work to help feed his family while attending school. This also prevented him from engaging in those kinds of extra activities that schools favor. Hector lives in the ghetto and hears gunfire every night. Gang warfare is commonplace. I'm saying the Hector is a far more valuable student, far more worthy than say Vic Chan, who lives in Cupertino and studies 18 hours per day in the comfort and solitude of his bedroom. Chan never had to work and was able to study for the SAT years in advance without distraction. Chan applies with a 4.6 GPA and a 2400 SAT with loads of AP classes and tons of activities with other asian-based groups.
>> Let's take this version of the hypothetical under the assumption that there are no other relevant facts. Your assertion: "Hector is a far more valuable student, far more worthy..." My response is three fold. One, I would never presume one student being more valued than another. Two, it is high likely that Hector's file will stand out versus other applicants from his ethnicity, particularly for a public university in a state with a high % of Hispanics. Three, it is therefore a reasonable to suggest that Hector will be seen as the more attractive admit. Value judgments have no place here.
I'm saying that UCLA will admit Chan as a matter of course. >> "As a matter of course." What does this mean? These is no Asian conspiracy. There is however, a different set of objectives and circumstances for UCLA. That Mr. Chan should have a good shot to get into UCLA, a uni one significant notch below UCB on the admit ladder, should not be surprising. That said, it will not be a slam dunk for any Asian student. However, perfect SAT's suggest Vic ain't your average Asian applicant, since less than 0.1% get the perfect 2400. And again, I am assuming nothing else about his application
Hector may not be given as much consideration given whatever factors are pressing at the moment, like the tight budget. >> Hmmm...the tie between admissions selectivity and finances is likely to be small given needs-blind admissions. Although, I would agree that such firewalls are likely to be more porous during such rough economic times.
I'm also saying that Hector deserves greater consideration. >> LOL!! You continue to argue on moral grounds. While it is the right of every red blood American to thins their children deserve the best, but as an analytics-based consultant, I keep my values out for the sake of my clients.
I applaud Chan for his efforts and hard work, but the road was much easier for him. >> Pardon my French, but do you realise how ridiculous and ignorant you sound. I do not know if Vic is beaten physically and mentally by his parents to achieve perfection, just like I do not know if Hector is given great love and support and special tutleage from Ivy alumni...I do not make any such assumptions. If you truly wish to understand admissions critically, keep your value judgments on the shelf!
Chan would be turned down at UCLA if it had already admitted 70% asians and couldn't go higher. >> ?????
I think there is more to a student than GPA and SAT scores. >> Welcome to the modern world. This has been the case for the past 25+ years, with each year getting more competitive.
I don't believe in favoring students who obsess over grades and spend their entire waking moments testing the limits of human endurance for studying, especially when they have no outside distractions, no adversity beyond what they put on themselves, and no obstacles. >> This is your admissions philosophy. You may be surprised to know that my own personal sentiments are not terribly dissimilar. The problem for you and for thousands of parents is that you imposed your value judgments onto the admissions process. My business is based on strategy and logic, not wishful thinking nor naïve expectations of an absolutism in values with regards to “should” and “ought to’s.” Until you have your own university, I would suggest you ponder a bit what I am trying to teach you…
I think white students have the greatest advantage, being that society has favored them overwhelmingly on every level for centuries. This still occurs. Asians have a great advantage because all they merely need to do is commit themselves to excessively studying to get extraodinary marks. They then are given great consideration. I don't find that model an ideal one to follow in developing well-rounded, versatile people. Great for robots, people who want to work as engineers spending their entire careers relating to computers. Great for people who want to spend 16 hours per day working with chemicals in a lab. great for those who want to spend 16 hours per day in a lab dissecting animals and studying fossils or tissue samples or enzyme activity under a microscope. Great for people who want to work for the rest of their lives in complete solitude, not relating or communicating with people who are different than themselves. No I don't favor this model. >> Were your thread on what should be the admissions philosophy for the University of California system, I would be willing to dig into this paragraph statement by statement. But nearly all is immaterial to the strategic decision that applicants should have made and what the university based its decision on…
I shudder to think that you are an admissions consultant >> The great tragedy here is that as a parent you failed to even acknowledge the role that strategic games play in the admit process regarding your child. Nowhere in my previous post did I ever reveal my own personal views, values, or casus belli. While I have enjoyed a fruitful career in divulging my opinions on matters, I am paid for my analysis and strategic policy advice. If you can step back from your personal tragedy, you will note that I am giving you thousands of dollars of advice for free. Open your eyes and see!
and unable to accept the reality that racism or traditional disadvantages still works to the detriment of certain races of people. >> What an odd and utterly irrelevant accusation.
Certainly parents of kids applying for admission were affected. Their grandparents undoubtedly were. >> You would be surprised to know that you match the archetype upon which I formed my consultancy. ..a parent who did all the “right things” but did them with their blinders on. The parent and child combo who would awaken in April with the nasty realization that they did no realize the nature of the game they had been playing for the past 4+ years.
No wonder these schools are producing robots who are social, self-absorbed retards. >> You are bitter. You feel cheated. You feel played. You are projecting this venom on those whom you once admired but now you are making responsible for your child’s denial. If I am right, I am sure that those who were admitted and the ethnicities at whom you are targeting this bitterness might forgive you for such statements. In my experience, a fair number those kids working their butts off are also those willing to engage in the learning and application process.
Look around. This is not good. >> I see a different world than you do…in comp sci, biochemistry, physics, electrical engineering, material science engineering, law and economics, these are all fields that require focused study and reflection…
But, I support affirmative action. >> Relevance to this discussion????
It is an ever-evolving mechanism to compensate for a playing field that is still not level. >> True as far as conception, but plagued with a number of problems…but again, relevance?
It appears like the rest of the country (esp the East) is far ahead in this regard.
>> Among big private unis, a combo of the Stanford & Harvard models predominates. Among top public universities, UCB is leading the way.
>> The West defines the frontier in admissions, where the West remains anchored in tradition
S
P.S. If your daughter earned a high GPA and high SAT and has spent time developing her whole person, she should be get into a number of fine universities. That is great, even if the strategizing was not done. Don't lose sight of that and retool strategically...
Thank you for your analysis, but I don't find it necessary to dissect each and every one of your points. I don't see why you find it necessary to dissect my comments sentence-by-sentence in some effort to win some sort of self-imposed semantic battle here. My points are valid. Try reading them again.
The fact is that affirmative action is needed and it will be supported in some form. Anyone pretending that race is not a factor is well....naive.
Yes, my daughter has already been accepted into some fine schools. Again, I expected better from the UC.
Last edited by LexusNexus; 03-22-2009 at 03:46 AM..
Well, would you want a doctor that spent lots of time studying and learning, or one that is better at talking to people. Kind of like that show House, he doesn't talk to people well, but is very serious about learning and being right and finding the answer. If you have a doctor or surgeon, you'd probably want one that can find the right answer. If you have an engineer building a bridge or other device where safety is a concern, then you'd want one that studied and learned what they were supposed to. The UC schools have highly ranked technical programs, so it wouldn't be a surprise such people would want to go there.
If you are looking for a more well rounded, more social education, then that's where liberal arts schools are involved. UC schools may have liberal arts programs, but they are better ranked in technical fields. In fact most of the ivy league schools don't have serious engineering programs.
To answer your question, I'd want BOTH (one who spent a lot of time studying and learning AND one who talks to people well). Wouldn't you? You misinterpeted my points.
From this link, I found the following for UCLA criteria. Ms. Sun's Admissions Guide to Highly Selective California Public Universities
Academic
Rigor of secondary school record - very important
Class rank - not considered
Academic GPA - very important
Standardized test scores - very important
Application essay - very important
Recommendation(s) - not considered
Nonacademic
Interview - not considered
Extracurricular activities - important
Talent/ability - important
Character/personal qualities - important
First generation - considered
Alumni/ae relation - not considered
Geographical residence - considered State residency - not considered (the Undergraduate Admissions & Relations with Schools states that "UCLA gives priority to applicants who are California residents" but if you look at the UCLA freshman admit rate for out-of-state applicants, you can see the percentage is about the same or higher compared to in-state applicants)
Religious affiliation/commitment - not considered
Racial/ethnic status - not considered
Volunteer work - important
Work experience - important
Level of interest - not considered
The stats that are available show a ~1-5% greater rate of Asians than Whites in last year's admission rate in some of the schools. That's not as big as you make it out to be.
Thank you for the information.
Last edited by LexusNexus; 03-22-2009 at 03:48 AM..
you can tell alexus is prejudiced toward asians. he is not an impartial judge and he assumes a lot. he is also an idiot for thinking asians study for 15 to 18 hours and there is not enough time in the day for any other extracurricular activities. that is not even effective studying and your brain shuts down anyway. he also assumes those who have harder times in life deserve more, that's like saying a homeless person deserves more. it also ignores the work and dedication parents put in toward their children and that should not be discredited but should be rewarded. just because a child is from unfortunate backgrounds does not mean they are more qualified, more moral or have worked harder. And even if they have, it's rarely quantifiable. There are standards and they have to be met period. If he thinks asians are having it easier and arguing a mexican immigrant who has a poorer background is more qualified needs to realize that the parents then need to be faulted. your children, generally, are only as successful as you can provide for them. To fault another group for several generations humble beginnings, diligence, hard work, and achieved success is wrong. then that mexican immigrant who has potential should not be bitter and realize they did not make the standards, end of story, and apply at other fine schools where the opportunity to achieve is still there. A student like that would be accepted at many good schools and it is not like they are being discriminated against.
he is placing an unfair moral judgement on others that is in essence immoral. it's no different than those who are bitter trying to pull down someone they think is successful.
Please don't lose your composure. I'm not making any moral judgments, be serious. My daughter's scores exceeded those of most of the asian students in her school. She has already been accepted to some fine schools but I'm trying to figure out why certain UC schools accepted all of her asian friends who didn't have scores as high as she has, but turned her down. It's a simple inquiry. Perhaps it's as simple as they had better personal statements, or more compelling extra activities, or perhaps each worked while in school, or perhaps they had to learn english. All valid reasons.
I have the greatest respect for asian people and greatly admire them in every respect, so you're wrong there. I don't speak from hearsay and I'm far more familiar with asian study habits than I care to reveal here. I'm just not an advocate for the kind of pressure that is put on kids these days, requiring them to pull all-nighters on a regular basis and attend school regularly sleep-deprived. I also don't see the point of AP classes or the emphasis that school's place on them. Disagree if you must, but calling me anti-asian really is not a correct way to interpret my comments.
So my quest for answers continues... she also hasn't heard from all the UC schools she has applied to.
Last edited by LexusNexus; 03-22-2009 at 03:44 AM..
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Cold Hearted Analysis rather than moral judgments
